debut album 2-disc edition

I've praised John Cale on here in the past for his work on the Stooges debut but now I've finally (yes FINALLY ) got myself a brand new copy of the deluxe edition and have had time to listen to his original mixes and stuff, whereas I'd only occasionally downloaded them before and never really listened properly.

Was this guy the world's worst mixer?

I love Scotty's drumming of course but to make it sound about five times as loud as Ron's guitar - which I thought was the most powerful sound in the universe - as Cale does on some tracks, what the f*ck was he on? I'm surprised he didn't make that goddam piano sound louder than Ron! And fading out 'Little Doll' BEFORE it gets to those incredible wahs and practically squashing the solo guitar and drums together in the one channel (to the detriment of both) on those other versions of 'not right' and 'real cool time'

'Dog' with the alternate vocals sounds great tho, and of course there are the extended versions of 'Ann' and 'No Fun' (altho what I would like even better would be an extended version of 'Little Doll'! ) I guess I'll stick to the first disc after all, or just my previous much-used copy (but that's getting old now and I've literally worn it out!!)

OK I'm away out now otherwise I'll be raging at Cale all night

Yeah, his "vision" on the original mixed was pretty awful.

Well, I hate to say it (I don't actually, cause I'm a bit of an ass) but...

I TOLD YOU SO!

I think the Stooges may have been hist first BIG job. Patti Smith's Horses and many of Nico's LPs are mixed phenomenally.

mg196 wrote:

I think the Stooges may have been hist first BIG job. Patti Smith's Horses and many of Nico's LPs are mixed phenomenally.

maybe, but it still makes me mad

he's not a technician. he's just come from the velvets, where the music isn't even mixed, it's just recorded all at once in a room.
i think his real contributions would have been musical, while recording. Think single note piano and humming viola.

He obviously heard it differently to the Stooges, but I'm so happy that second CD was released.
The full version of Ann is awesome.

OK I guess my first reaction was a little extreme...it's just I was so taken aback...but all I can say now is, well just thank god that Cale's weren't the only mixes of those tracks

Nadja wrote:

all I can say now is, well just thank god that Cale's weren't the only mixes of those tracks

Not gonna argue with that...

You can never have too many Stooge mixes.

TED wrote:

You can never have too many Stooge mixes.

they've got to be done right though

which means, Ron Asheton's rhythm guitar should NEVER be made to sound almost tinny the way that it sometimes does on this disc, and almost subordinate to the handclaps in the same channel (who did those anyway??) An equally unforgivable sin is how the solo guitar on 'real cool time' is almost drowned out by the drums at times. and then bizarrely, on the following track, the extended 'Ann', the drumming is almost anonymous. And of course it's brilliant to have this extended version of 'Ann' but the first part doesn't have the same incredibly spooky quality as the other. And then while the extended 'No Fun' is even better, the vocals aren't as good as on the final version...ok now I'm finding fault just for the sake of it

of course y're right really, we can never have too much Stooges! it's just I don't like Ron's guitar to be screwed around with. (At least the bass doesn't seem to have been fucked around much tho!)

and to think they felt the need, on this 2-disc edition, to have an endorsement from Alice Cooper of 'Dog', 'No Fun' and '1969' as 'modern classics' on the front cover!

TED wrote:

You can never have too many Stooge mixes.

Except for those shitty echo mixes on the Raw Stooges Vol.1

mc wrote:

TED wrote:

You can never have too many Stooge mixes.

Except for those shitty echo mixes on the Raw Stooges Vol.1

I have the 'Complete Raw Mixes' and they all seem to be fan-made 'Out of Phase' jobbies. Does anyone know the history of these mixes?

well I suppose it's interesting to have different mixes, helps to broaden my Stooges experience or something
just to repeat myself tho, it really is ludicrous that on that first mix of '1969' you can't really hear anything clearly except the drums and handclaps - the percussion I should call it. at least on the extended 'No Fun' the rhythm guitar has been mercifully placed on the other side to those handclaps. and the solo on this really does end up sounding like a plane coming in to land or something, and it makes me remember what Ron said, that he liked to get that kind of effect cuz he liked planes

i thought it was pretty bad ass to see ol' alice's "endorsement" on the stooges deluxe edition.

Shakes wrote:

i thought it was pretty bad ass to see ol' alice's "endorsement" on the stooges deluxe edition.

just seems kinda ironic or something

TED wrote:

You can never have too many Stooge mixes.

true,i know threre are more mixes with small differences to the ones on disc 2.Bill ingelot told me this .

neven wrote:

TED wrote:

You can never have too many Stooge mixes.

true,i know threre are more mixes with small differences to the ones on disc 2.Bill ingelot told me this .

any more info on these neven?

Hey Nadja,
The John Cale mixes sound fantastic when you're stoned =)

haha, thanks for the tip OUTBURST

you're welcome my dear

What I wanted to say: I believe John Cale was perhaps "under the influence" when mixing the songs

Nadja wrote:

neven wrote:

TED wrote:

You can never have too many Stooge mixes.

true,i know threre are more mixes with small differences to the ones on disc 2.Bill ingelot told me this .

any more info on these neven?

i asked Bill if there were more outtakes or different mixes and he told me there were more mixes with small differences.that's all i know.

I actually like the Cale mixes. Of course they don't have the same heavy guitar crunch as the finished album, but for me that isn't entirely the key to the early Stooges. They had that rickety, unbalanced, swirling psychedelic side to them as well, and I think Cale's 'arty' mixes capture that. They're not better than the official mixes, but they're just as valid IMO.

Incidentally, has anyone noticed that the Cale mixes on the 2CD edition run slightly slow as compared to the album versions of the same tracks? Presumably it's because they're from an old cassette, but you'd think Rhino could have fixed something like that.

OUTBURST wrote:

you're welcome my dear

What I wanted to say: I believe John Cale was perhaps "under the influence" when mixing the songs

oh is THAT what you meant

mark wrote:

I actually like the Cale mixes. Of course they don't have the same heavy guitar crunch as the finished album, but for me that isn't entirely the key to the early Stooges. They had that rickety, unbalanced, swirling psychedelic side to them as well, and I think Cale's 'arty' mixes capture that. They're not better than the official mixes, but they're just as valid IMO.

Incidentally, has anyone noticed that the Cale mixes on the 2CD edition run slightly slow as compared to the album versions of the same tracks? Presumably it's because they're from an old cassette, but you'd think Rhino could have fixed something like that.

I'm getting more used to the Cale mixes, had another listen thru the other night. I'm not sure in what sense they're 'arty', but they are okay, and if I want to listen to Ron's guitar in all its unparalleled glory then I can just go back to the 'main' mixes of course. Never noticed them running slow - will listen again. also it's good to get extra bits on the solos on many of the tracks (not just the extended 'ann' and 'no fun')