Raw Power Embassy Reels?

Yes, thats the UK issue, i was talking about the US CD issue which first came out in 1988.

I have speed corrected one track from the cassette . If anyone wants to hear this 256mp3 track ("Hard to beat") PM me your email address...first make sure your inbox will take a 9MB music file.

It would be much easier both for you and those who want it, if you could upload it at www.megaupload.com and post the link here. Many emailproviders have trouble with attachments over 10MB....

i willl upload the whole thing at a site like that...i have re-ripped it at 256kbps so it is now under 10MB

johnthelawman wrote:

It seems that the two "Embassy" tracks on the deluxe set are also just the Bowie mixes, so that's two more that we know aren't a different mix. Anyone able to post a quick clip of each track? I don't have an advanced set, but a friend brought his over and my initial findings were that they are just the Bowie mixes.

I really don't see how this can be. Robert Matheu recognised the different mix of Search & Destroy on copies that he heard during the mid-1970's. Bruce Dickinson found the original reels and states that it is a completely different mix of the whole album. Surely both of them can't be wrong?

>i willl upload the whole thing at a site like that...i could re-rip it at 256kbps so it should be under 10MB

Yeah, but it would be way better to use megaupload. I use it a lot, works great.

Can you tell me more about from what version you got the files which you edited? Did you use the mp3 from the Stupefaction blog site and converted them to wav (which you then edited), or did you have an original cassette which you transfered yourself?

Best of all would be if you put all tracks in lossless .flac format in a folder, which you compress to .rar or.zip, then upload the whole thing that way on megaupload....

Yep, i will do that when i have speed corrected the whole album...have re-ripped the one track @ 256kbps its 9MB. This is from an original cassette

[quote="boogie"]

mr.datsun wrote:

StoogesFan.

Here is the Sundazed rip, if it helps to clear anything up.

There's something wrong with that rip,it's like the stereo version with one channel off!

Thanks all for noticing the real problem. I feel like an idiot.

I've had enough A/Bing and so called different mixes – I'm sticking to the 'original' Bowie mix LP from now on [insert stupid disney-esque iconomoticon here]

StoogesFan wrote:

"I'll ask again - what makes you think the Embassy reels are not the Bowie mix? It's been stated time and time again that the Embassy LP is just the Bowie mix mastered differently, and I'm yet to see or hear any evidence that suggests otherwise."
Okay then, try this: Bruce Dickinson transcribed the Embassy Reels for the latest reissue. I direct you to his words as to what was on those reels: "It was a completely alternate mix of the entire album." Is that evidence enough for you?

I'm tempted to reserve judgement on this one till we've heard it. For one thing, doesn't that come from the same press release that would have us believe that the Atlanta show is from "Iggy's private tape stash"? Also, as we've seen on this thread it seems that when it comes to Raw Power, there seems to have been a lot of confusion over what's a different mix and what's the same mix, differently mastered.

The deciding factor would be whether or not the 'Embassy' versions of Shake Appeal and Death Trip on the new CD are different mixes from the Bowie version.

Quote :

"He also said (or, at least, very strongly implied) the exact opposite - see the Creem interview I linked to above."
So what? It changes nothing.

That's true enough, you're still wrong

Seriously though - you can't just brush that aside, it directly undermines what you're claiming!

Quote :

Fact: Iggy said, in print, that he demanded Mainman keep his original mix of S&D for the album.

Still waiting for the source on that one - and, as I said before, the fact that he's also said the opposite does cast doubt on the veracity of both statements.

Quote :

Fact: Early pressings of Raw Power do indeed have a different mix of this track than subsequent pressings. To me it seems obvious, but if you can provide an alternative explanation please go ahead.

I don't have an alternative explanation. Like you, I don't know how the two mixes came about. For what it's worth, I think it's just as likely to be an alternate Bowie mix as an Iggy mix - or even a difference thrown up by some quirk in the mastering rather than a true alternate mix.

Quote :

"Rumoured by whom? And when?"
That's a silly question. Rumoured by: Stooges fans. When? Over the last 37 years!

So the fact something is rumoured makes it true?

Quote :

The 'monitor mix' theory is by far the most likely, as the lack of fade-outs on the tracks show. Again, if you have a better idea......

Fade-outs are often added at the mastering stage, so the lack of fade-outs on the WABX tapes doesn't establish anything one way or the other.

Quote :

"How do you know? Have you heard the tape that Iggy presented to Mainman"?
Let's consider the facts here. It is a matter of record that Iggy presented one master tape to Mainman. This was rejected. The tape reels, as per standard industry practice, would have been sent to the vaults as they were still the property of Mainman/CBS regardless of their acceptability.

Mainman? Or CBS? If the reels ended up in Mainman's vaults, they won't have been accessible to the people digging in the CBS/Sony vaults for the Legacy reissue. There's a similar situation with Bowie material from the same period - some stuff is in RCA's vaults, some is still owned by Mainman.

Quote :

David Bowie provided a new master that was accepted. Suddenly, 37 years later, tape reels with a 'completely alternate mix' of Raw Power are discovered in the vaults. Doesn't logic therefore suggest that this must be the rejected mix by Iggy? After all, where else could it have come from?

It's a plausible theory, but for now it remains just that - a theory. The fact that no one who has heard the Legacy box so far has jumped up and said the versions of Shake Appeal and Death Trip are different makes it unlikely, to my mind. I'm still inclined to believe that the Embassy reels a just a different mastering of the same mix, done at the time the Embassy LP was cut.

mr.datsun wrote:

boogie wrote:

mr.datsun wrote:

StoogesFan.

Here is the Sundazed rip, if it helps to clear anything up.

There's something wrong with that rip,it's like the stereo version with one channel off!

Thanks all for noticing the real problem. I feel like an idiot.

I've had enough A/Bing and so called different mixes – I'm sticking to the 'original' Bowie mix LP from now on [insert stupid disney-esque iconomoticon here]

For what it's worth, the Sundazed rip I've been working from is definitely stereo. As with my 1989 Castle/Essential CD, it has Search & Destroy in rather flat-sounding near mono, and the other tracks have all the crazy panning we've come to know and love.

From memory I think I downloaded it from some torrent site - Google "Raw Power (Bowie Mix)" + 224kbps + torrent and that should bring it up.

mark wrote:

Seach & Destroy
Defintely an alt mix - either that or the tape is seriously screwed! In general there is more stereo panning here - the original is virtually mono. Cymbal and (more prominent) swordfighting noises panned to left plus strange delay effect from snare. Echo on "forgotten boy, forgotten boy" bit near the end. Slight stereo echo on the guitar. More prominent bass and more bottom-end on the drums, but this could just be the sound of the tape. Slightly longer ending - the last thing you hear is an extra cymbal hit not on the LP

Having listened again to the Sundazed rip, I think it does have the same panning as described on the cassette above - however, it's much, much less pronunced, to the point at which it's barely noticeable. In other words, it could be the same mix, only the stereo field is somehow wider on the cassette, meaning that the parts panned left or right are louder. I'm no expert on 1970s mastering techniques, but I believe this can be done at the mastering stage by taking the stereo channels out of phase. It's the same principal as those 'Karaoke' buttons on stereo systems that cut out the central channel to get rid of the vocal. Can anyone confirm?

Mark, finally we can agree on something - it's best to reserve judgement until we actually hear the thing. This release seems to be unravelling as we speak. First of all we were promised a remastered Bowie mix that would knock spots off the previous releases, and now people are saying it's no better that the previous vinyl version. Then we were promised an unreleased outtake, which people are now saying has been overdubbed and otherwise tampered-with. Finally we were promised two unreleased mixes - which are now suspected of being regular Bowie mixes. I sincerely hope all these negative rumours turn out to be untrue.

Incidentally, it is almost impossible for this to be an 'alternate Bowie mix' as has been suggested. According to information in common circulation, Bowie remixed the entire album in one day. This doesn't leave much time for additional work. Besides, I have heard the 'alternate' S&D, and the mix is substantially different in places.

With regard to the source of information for the Iggy mix of Search & Destroy, as I said, it came from a magazine that I no longer have. However, for what it's worth, the same information is also on Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raw_Power

I know that Wikipedia is not 100% reliable, but it does at least show that the information is in common circulation. It is possible - and I admit this is conjecture - that Iggy decided he liked Bowie's mix of S&D after all, and this is why it was added to the later pressings.

StoogesFan wrote:

Incidentally, it is almost impossible for this to be an 'alternate Bowie mix' as has been suggested. According to information in common circulation, Bowie remixed the entire album in one day. This doesn't leave much time for additional work. Besides, I have heard the 'alternate' S&D, and the mix is substantially different in places.

It says here that the Bowie mix was done over two days - October 24th and 25th, 1972.

However, see the post above - I'm starting to suspect that the 'alternate' Search & Destroy is simply the Bowie mix with a wider stereo field. I'm about to try something that may prove or disprove this... watch this space.

So if Search is the only track which is majorly different on the Embassy Reels why the hell didn't they include it on disk 3 of the deluxe set!

That's a good question ! I have heard the two tracks on disc 3 (someone I know snagged the official CD-R releases on ebay a couple of weeks back), and they actually are REmastered in such a way that they sound a bit like the versions on disc 1, only they sound marginally better.

Sorry to anyone involved in this reissue posting here, but guys, I would have done a better job conceiving a killer set within 2 days of investigating the different tapes available and sources. As probably any fan posting here would have, even with no experience in conceiving records sets.

Next time drop me an email and hire me, I'm available

mark wrote:

It says here that the Bowie mix was done over two days - October 24th and 25th, 1972.

However, see the post above - I'm starting to suspect that the 'alternate' Search & Destroy is simply the Bowie mix with a wider stereo field. I'm about to try something that may prove or disprove this... watch this space.

I agree. There is so much hearsay and also I think a certain amount of selective or inaccurate remembering from those involved at that time that it's hard to get a clear picture of anything without corroborative statements or supporting evidence. Iggy says 1 day was spent in the studio on that video that was posted but I take those things with a pinch of salt because he may not be remembering accurately. Maybe Iggy spent one day but Bowie spent two?


Also the link you post above and somewhere here in this forum says that the Iggy mix had all the vocals in one channel and instruments in the other (although that also sounds a little like a description of Cale's 1st Lp mix)


I think that there is a strong desire for there to be evidence of an available Iggy mix from the fans. It's likely clouding the issue a little. Just because there are so-called Embassy mix reels in existance does not make them Iggv Pop mixes.

gazatthebop wrote:

I agree that if you want an improvement on the 1988 (1989 is being mentioned a lot but it was 1988) Bowie mix cd you will most probably be disappointed

I love it – an LP that resists the corporate need to remaster and re-market. What an achievement from Mr Pop and Mr Bowie. I like it even more for that.

But seriously I think that the remaster is being dismissed too quickly. I only have a 200kbps vbr download (until my legit copy arrives- honest, guv!) but can hear the difference. Yes it's the same album as the original – who would want otherwise? But on my hifi I can really notice a new presence that goes beyond a 1db loudness difference. Gimme Danger is a good place to start as you can hear a better portrayal of the guitars, more realistic percussion and more space between the instruments for your mind to wander. Ditto throughout as I listen. It's not a kick you in the arse-teeth difference but a sound quality difference. More real, I'd say. I like it.

Also it's the version of the LP that needs to be heard properly since the 1980's CD went out of print.

mr.datsun wrote:

gazatthebop wrote:

I agree that if you want an improvement on the 1988 (1989 is being mentioned a lot but it was 1988) Bowie mix cd you will most probably be disappointed

I love it – an LP that resists the corporate need to remaster and re-market. What an achievement from Mr Pop and Mr Bowie. I like it even more for that.

But seriously I think that the remaster is being dismissed too quickly. I only have a 200kbps vbr download (until my legit copy arrives- honest, guv!) but can hear the difference. Yes it's the same album as the original – who would want otherwise? But on my hifi I can really notice a new presence that goes beyond a 1db loudness difference. Gimme Danger is a good place to start as you can hear a better portrayal of the guitars, more realistic percussion and more space between the instruments for your mind to wander. Ditto throughout as I listen. It's not a kick you in the arse-teeth difference but a sound quality difference. More real, I'd say. I like it.

Also it's the version of the LP that needs to be heard properly since the 1980's CD went out of print.

This is about the supposedly unheard mixes put on as bonus tracks to pad out the set.

G, F#, E wrote:

This is about the supposedly unheard mixes put on as bonus tracks to pad out the set.

I thought we were talking about the overall quality of legacy original boowie remaster...

mr.datsun wrote:

G, F#, E wrote:

This is about the supposedly unheard mixes put on as bonus tracks to pad out the set.

I thought we were talking about the overall quality of legacy original boowie remaster...

Ah ok, I misread what you said, my apologies.

G, F#, E wrote:

mr.datsun wrote:

G, F#, E wrote:

This is about the supposedly unheard mixes put on as bonus tracks to pad out the set.

I thought we were talking about the overall quality of legacy original boowie remaster...

Ah ok, I misread what you said, my apologies.

no worries. i wondered if it was I that had got it wrong

mr. datsun wrote:
But seriously I think that the remaster is being dismissed too quickly. I only have a 200kbps vbr download (until my legit copy arrives- honest, guv!) but can hear the difference. Yes it's the same album as the original – who would want otherwise? But on my hifi I can really notice a new presence that goes beyond a 1db loudness difference. Gimme Danger is a good place to start as you can hear a better portrayal of the guitars, more realistic percussion and more space between the instruments for your mind to wander. Ditto throughout as I listen. It's not a kick you in the arse-teeth difference but a sound quality difference. More real, I'd say. I like it.


I gotta agree with the sentiment that the leagcy edition is being unfairly dismissed. In a way I have been dreading this release and the possibility that it would not improve the sound that much. The first time I listened to it though I could hear a noticeable difference especialy on Gimme Danger and I need somebody. It would be nice to hear the bass, drums and rhythem guitar more (especially on Death trip) but I do think the remaster sounds quite a bit better and I am not particualrily a fan of the Bowie mix.

One sweetener for those waiting for the Legacy version of "Raw Power" is its 34 seconds longer than the 1988 US CD version, clocking in @ 33.54

Thanks, it seems this UK cassette is the regular disc not the same as the Embassy mix ?