Revenge and Bomp releases... which ones are still needed?

andrew wrote:

http://www.discogs.com/label/Revenge+Records+(2)

That seems to be a different Revenge![/quote]

you have to add the (2) after the + at the end of the url. it doesn't add on for some reason.

I've got a question about Tornado Turner. He is mentioned in the link here
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Stooges_%27Detroit_Rehearsal%27_tapes#The_.27Iggy_and_unknown_guitarist.27_tape as Warren Klein.
Could it be the same guy who played in Lowell George's band called The Factory? And also appeared on other records by several artists? Such as Beck, Frank Zappa ones, etc.?
I googled 'Warren Klein guitar' and that's basically what showed up. It would make sense if it's him. Cuz he might have been hired then for Iggy as a session musician.

OK, I've updated the Wikipedia page again, mainly to identify (as far as I'm able) the true sources of the two tapes that appear to be composites from other tapes.

Andrew, I'm afraid I haven't incorporated anything from your latest track listing so far, mainly because I'm struggling to get my head round how it fits in with the ones from Per that the Wikipedia page is based around. The main difficulty is that Per's listings don't mention anything about How It Hurts or Hey Baby. Do you have a view about whether these songs can be linked to those odd titles like On the Beach, Love Light, Sack O'Shit etc?

mark wrote:

OK, I've updated the Wikipedia page again, mainly to identify (as far as I'm able) the true sources of the two tapes that appear to be composites from other tapes.

Andrew, I'm afraid I haven't incorporated anything from your latest track listing so far, mainly because I'm struggling to get my head round how it fits in with the ones from Per that the Wikipedia page is based around. The main difficulty is that Per's listings don't mention anything about How It Hurts or Hey Baby. Do you have a view about whether these songs can be linked to those odd titles like On the Beach, Love Light, Sack O'Shit etc?

"On The Beach" is the original title for "Down On The Street", thankfully the lyrics were changed prior to going to the studio. "Hey Baby" is just a jam and "How It Hurts" is an early version of "Rubber Legs". I THINK that "Sack O'Shit" may be an alternative/early title for "I Got Nothin'". I have no idea about "Love Light" though.

G, F#, E wrote:

"On The Beach" is the original title for "Down On The Street", thankfully the lyrics were changed prior to going to the studio.

(That is a joke -right?)

I don't really have any idea about how those titles tie up. I am thinking of trying to contact a couple of people who might know something about this though... I'll let you know if anything come of it.

andrew wrote:

G, F#, E wrote:

"On The Beach" is the original title for "Down On The Street", thankfully the lyrics were changed prior to going to the studio.

(That is a joke -right?)

I don't really have any idea about how those titles tie up. I am thinking of trying to contact a couple of people who might know something about this though... I'll let you know if anything come of it.

It isn't a joke! Seriously. It was about his girlfriend Wendy.

it's true, it used to be down on the beach, right?

just evolved with time i guess, and thnk god they did, i like

"down on the street
where the faces shine"

better than

"down on the street
where the faces meet"

its not bad, i just like the line ''where the faces shine", think its a great line

Re these releases I've long thought that the 'Rubberlegs' collection should be reissued from the best tapes : the 'Studio Session 73/74' think that was the title?) bootleg LP was the first release of these and sounds much better than the Rubberlegs LP / CD.

As far as I recall I don't think the Easy Action set used anything mastered from that Studio Sessions set? (I'd be shocked if they did! ).

Information about the names of these songs is from Per's book. He can help us.
In the book "On The Beach" is listed as James song (sessions 1973), so I think this is not "Down On The Street".

I very much doubt that being a proper title though Iguanas as "On The Beach" was definetly the original title for "Down On The Street".

G, F#, E wrote:

It isn't a joke! Seriously. It was about his girlfriend Wendy.

Oh yeah you're right! Sorry! I've just just seen this referred to in the Paul Trynka book - 'Down On The Street' was apparently originally 'Down On The Beach' - although I'm sure I read a different story about the origin of Down On The Street elsewhere, some time ago.

I think it's pretty unlikely that 'On The Beach' from the '73 tapes will turn out to be the same song though.

Another worrying possibility is that Bomp's own tapes aren't actually from the masters, and it's those tapes, rather than the masters, that are cut up and jumbled. Hence them not matching what circulates.

What's the story of how they got to Bomp? I thought JW sold them to Greg Shaw around the time of Kill City, right?

Would anyone be able to upload this Studio Sessions 73-74 LP somewhere??

I can't rule it out, but there may be others who may be more ready to do that / have better audio equipment. I have a good deck and turntable...I transferred the lp to minidisc...now I'm into torrenting I see minidiscs are out of favour!

If no-one can upload it in the next month or two I could probably load up my minidisc version at some point.

G, F#, E wrote:

I very much doubt that being a proper title though Iguanas as "On The Beach" was definetly the original title for "Down On The Street".

I don't say that you're not right, but if this is true, the information in Per's book is wrong.

mark wrote:

My Girl Hates My Heroin (Revenge) has Stooges mixes of Death Trip and Gimme Danger

Just as a minor correction to this as it seems I'm no longer able to edit my original post - having listened on Spotify, it seems that Death Trip on this release is a poor quality copy of the Bowie mix, and Gimme Danger is a Detroit rehearsal. I guess this is the same as the version on Disc 3 of Heavy Liquid - can anyone confirm?

Annoyingly, the Wikipedia page I put up about the Detroit rehearsal tapes, which contained a lot of useful research courtesy of people on this forum, has now been deleted. Can anyone recommend an alternative home for it?

mark wrote:

mark wrote:

My Girl Hates My Heroin (Revenge) has Stooges mixes of Death Trip and Gimme Danger

Just as a minor correction to this as it seems I'm no longer able to edit my original post - having listened on Spotify, it seems that Death Trip on this release is a poor quality copy of the Bowie mix, and Gimme Danger is a Detroit rehearsal. I guess this is the same as the version on Disc 3 of Heavy Liquid - can anyone confirm?

Yes. My post here discusses how the Raw Power version of 'Death Trip' appears on one of the rehearsal tapes and has been put out on 'My Girl Hates My Heroin', 'Year Of The Iguana' and 'Heavy Liquid'! On this occasion I think 'Heavy Liquid' has used the Revenge copy of the track rather than the Bomp one. The Revenge copy is poorer quality (and perhaps a little fast?) whereas the Bomp one is presumably taken from the original rehearsal tape and has better quality.

'Gimme Danger' on MGHMH is the same as on HL disc 3. I think all of MGHMH appears on HL except the title track. However I think HL uses the Bomp copies of 'Raw Power' and 'Head On' rather than the poorer quality copies from MGHMH. The difference in quality on these two tracks and on 'Death Trip' probably gives some indication of the likely improvement in quality we'd get if the other stuff on MGHMH etc was put out directly from Bomp's source tapes.

To pick up from Andrew's track listings, here's some similar geekery based on some more of the '73 rehearsal tapes that I've recently got copies of.

The first one matches Per's listing of the March 17/18 tape - unusual amongst the Bomp tapes as there are no keyboards on any of the tracks:

1. Emotional Problems (aka Wild Love) (3:42 - breaks down)

2. Emotional Problems (aka Wild Love) (5:07)
Same version as on Heavy Liquid (disc 2 track 4) and Year of the Iguana.

3. Till the End of the Night (aka I Gotta Problem) (0:33 - breaks down)

4. Till the End of the Night (aka I Gotta Problem) (0:52 - breaks down)

5. Till the End of the Night (aka I Gotta Problem) (7:29)
Same version as Heavy Liquid (disc 3 track 4) and Year of the Iguana. However, unlike Year of the Iguana (and possibly Heavy Liquid?) it runs right to the end rather than fading out.

6. Head On (1:10 - tape cuts)

7. Head On (5:01 - breakdown in middle then starts up and runs to end)

(Some trade lists, including the Jesus Loves the Stooges one, include an "Unknown song" at this point - however, on my tape it goes straight on to...)

8. Head On (4:18)
The versions of Head On here seem a little tighter and more developed than the familiar 'Rubber Legs' version - in particular, there's a tom pattern over the intro similar to later live versions.

9. I Need Somebody (2:37)
Cuts in - 'Sweet Child' end section only. Does anyone else have a full version of I Need Somebody from the Detroit tapes?

The above tape then runs directly into this sequence of tracks, which isn't represented on Per's list of what's in the Bomp archives. However, I think it's actually a continuation of the March 17/18 tape for the following reasons:

(1) It always seems to travel amongst traders with the above set of tracks
(2) Very similar sound - the band is quite tight and crisp-sounding, with no keyboards
(3) The two sequences put together are roughly one hour long, which seems to be the standard length for an unedited Detroit Rehearsal Tape.

1. Johanna (2:30)
Cuts in during the intro, then ends messily during the solo

2. Johanna (2:25)
Full intro. Tape loud and distorted. Cuts toward end of solo

3. Johanna (2:43)
Still distorted. Tape cuts toward end of solo.

4. Johanna (3:04)
Starts out distorted. Volume drops back to normal towards end of first verse. Runs to end, ends messily.

5. Johanna (2:51)
Complete. Ends messily on Iggy's request.

6. Johanna (1:13)
Breaks down in first verse.

7. Johanna (1:29)
Tape cuts at end of first verse

8. Johanna (0:38)
Cuts cuts in at second verse (so could be continuation of above?) then cuts out before end

9. Johanna (2:59)
Complete

10. I Got a Problem aka Till the End of the Night(1:15)
One verse then goes to fast section, then tape cuts

11. I Got a Problem (1:42)
Again, verse follwed by fast section then breaks down

12. I Got a Problem (6:36)
Complete.

The next bit follows the tracklisting of what's described in the Per/Bomp list as 'Detroit rehearsal March 1973', but in fact is half made up of stuff from the February 20 1973 tape, and half stuff that's unique to this tape.

The unique stuff is as follows:

Till the End of the Night (aka I Gotta Problem) (6:03)
Not as tight as the versions from the March 17/18 tape, suggesting that this predates that tape. Looking at the listings of tapes that don't seem to be in circulation, this suggests that it might possibly belong to the February 25 1973 tape.

Raw Power (4:48)
Again, this sounds quite different from the other versions around (on the March 11/19 tape). In particular, the piano playing is in a lower octave and sounds quite inept. The only uncirculated tape that lists a version of Raw Power is 'Studio session 1973', so it could conceivably belong to that.

Rubber Legs (5:30)
Very different lyrics from the released versions - the chorus seems to be "You ain't had my pain". February 3 1973 is a possibility for this one.

My Girl Hates My Heroin (aka Emotional Problems) (4:06)
This is the version from the My Girl Hates My Heroin CD. February 3 1973 and February 25 1973 are both possibilities, looking at the lists.

Wild Love (aka Emotional Problems) (3.35) - ends when James apparently breaks a string!
Wild Love (aka Emotional Problems) (2.55) - ends abruptly, catching Scott out
Wild Love (aka Emotional Problems) (4:01) - starts with a guitar solo, possibly partway through a take. Ends a little untidily. Minus the first 56 seconds, this is the version that appears on the Wild Love CD.
Again, all three versions here sounding rougher than some of the March renditions, as if the song is still being worked out. Again, February 3 1973 and February 25 1973 are both possibilities.

We now go into a series of tracks that are identical to the versions on the tape dated February 20 1973. Andrew has already covered that tape in detail so there's not much point in discussing these tracks much here:

Open Up And Bleed (fast version - cut) (0:49)
Open Up and Bleed (fast version - complete) (3.14)
jam (She Creatures of the Hollywood Hills) (4:44)
Jesus Loves The Stooges (9:25 - 4 sections)
Gimme Danger (3:10 - breaks down)
Gimme Danger (4:20 - breaks down)
Gimme Danger (6:01)

It's probably worth going into the different sections of Jesus Loves the Stooges. On these unedited tapes, there are four different parts, two of which have been released officially:

Jesus Loves the Stooges 1 (2:51)
Cuts in abruptly with piano/live vocals/drums/bass - this is the first half of the track as released on the 1977 Jesus Loves the Stooges EP and Bomp's I'm Sick of You LP

Jesus Loves the Stooges 2 (1:01)
Piano, bass and drums only. Unreleased.

Jesus Loves the Stooges 3 (0:35)
Piano doodlings only. Unreleased.

Jesus Loves the Stooges 4 (4:57)
Piano, drums and overdubbed vocals. This is the second half of the track that appears on the 1977 Jesus Loves the Stooges EP and Bomp's I'm Sick of You LP. It also appears as an instrumental on Heavy Liquid and My Girl Hates My Heroin.

Strangely, this section is complete on the 'March 1973' compilation tape here, but my copy of the February 20 1973 tape has no vocals, and about 57 seconds chopped out of the middle!

And I think that's it - to the best of my knowledge, my last few posts plus the stuff Andrew posted about a while ago cover everything that circulates from these sessions. Unless, that is, anyone has any of these tapes in their entirity:

Studio Session 1973
Search And Destroy
Cock In My Pocket
Come Hungry Sweet Child part 2
Come Hungry Sweet Child
Cock In My Pocket
Raw Power
Come Hungry Sweet Child
Come Hungry Sweet Child part 2
Your Pretty Face Is Going To Hell

Detroit Rehearsal February 3 1973
Rubber Legs
My Veins Are Crying
Rubber Legs
I Need Somebody
Black Ace
Johanna
Head On
Emotional Problems

Detroit Rehearsal February 25 1973:
Johanna
On The Beach
Problems
* Nowhere (aka Born in a Trailer) (7:32)
Johanna
* Mellow Down Easy (2:03)
Love Light
Sack O' Shit
Problems
Head On
* (also circulating on other tapes)


There is definitely more stuff out there, as the Studio Rehearsals/Rubber Legs/Heavy Liquid Disc 4 versions of Cock in My Pocket, Head On and Pinpoint Eyes aren't on any of the other tapes we have at the moment.

Thanks for documenting the tapes Mark.

I've always wondered if titles like ''i got a problem'' etc were in fact just alternate names or new, unheard songs.

I'd love to know what 'sack o' shit' / 'love light' / 'on the beach' / ' black ace' / 'my veins are crying' are alternate names for - or if they are in fact new compositions

thanks
HJW

homesickjameswilliamson wrote:

I've always wondered if titles like ''i got a problem'' etc were in fact just alternate names or new, unheard songs.

I Gotta Problem = Till the End of the Night
Emotional Problems = Wild Love / My Girl Hates My Heroin

Quote :

I'd love to know what 'sack o' shit' / 'love light' / 'on the beach' / ' black ace' / 'my veins are crying' are alternate names for - or if they are in fact new compositions

My gut feeling is that they're alternative titles for songs we know - either that or just instrumental jams (for example, I bet one of them is Pin Point Eyes as that song doesn't appear anywhere in the lists). If they were true unreleased Stooges songs, I can't imagine Bomp wouldn't have exploited them by now.

Quote :

If they were true unreleased Stooges songs, I can't imagine Bomp wouldn't have exploited them by now.

thats a good point, especially with all the activity the band has had since reforming in 2003, and they'd have even more intention with williamson on board now, so i guess we've heard most stuff - but then again asthma attack was finally released this year, and i dont think anyone had an idea about hey peter or i'm hungry before the raw power box, and we now know unganos is out there and getting a release, and all the 1971 stuff that EA just put out - so its a good time to be a stoogephile and lets keep hoping more stuff pops up

HJW

Very helpful topic!

Should be marked as 'sticky'