First album new edition on Rhino Handmade

still waiting for mine too...rhino did promise a replacement if it hadn't arrived by today. Now they say the matter is being dealt with, having been passed on to the management team.

rev. mike wrote:

I just got this reply from Rhino when I asked them to explicitly state one way or another if the John Cale mixes would be corrected on the replacement discs:

Dear Mr. ______,

Thank you for contacting Rhino Customer Service.

We would like to inform you that the replacement discs that are going to be sent will not have any reasserting issues, and the John Cale mixes will play at the right speed.

Sounds kind of promising except they don't understand the common English usage of the word 'reasserting'. Let's hope the phrase 'the John Cale mixes will play at the right speed' really means what we hope it means.


It makes me wonder whether Rhino are publicly using the 'wrong labels' as an excuse to quietly correct the real problem/blunder of the mastering speed.

ggriffin wrote:

With all of the things that are appearing (including **Asthma Attack** for christ's sake), I can live without a Cale mix of We Will Fall that plays at the correct speed.

That would make sense if people wanted to spend £50 on 'Asthma Attack' – a track which is for me is only of historical interest itself. And then they could download a FLAC of it at a much reduced cost.

gazatthebop wrote:

still not got mine here in the uk though i pre-ordered it.

project manager is john hughes his email is....

johnhughes@rhino.com

this email address is on the back of promo copies

That email is wrong it should be john.hughes@rhino.com

mr.datsun wrote:

ggriffin wrote:

With all of the things that are appearing (including **Asthma Attack** for christ's sake), I can live without a Cale mix of We Will Fall that plays at the correct speed.

That would make sense if people wanted to spend £50 on 'Asthma Attack' – a track which is for me is only of historical interest itself.

Which brings up another tangent - am I the only one that thinks Asthma Attack is a wonderful track, beyond the historical interest?

mr.datsun wrote:

[It makes me wonder whether Rhino are publicly using the 'wrong labels' as an excuse to quietly correct the real problem/blunder of the mastering speed.

I've wondered that as well.

If they do send all of us corrected discs, I would be content. All I really want at the end of the day is my money's worth. After all it was a pretty steep price for a 2 cd set.

mghifi wrote:

If they do send all of us corrected discs, I would be content. All I really want at the end of the day is my money's worth. After all it was a pretty steep price for a 2 cd set.

I must concur.

ggriffin wrote:

mr.datsun wrote:

ggriffin wrote:

With all of the things that are appearing (including **Asthma Attack** for christ's sake), I can live without a Cale mix of We Will Fall that plays at the correct speed.

That would make sense if people wanted to spend £50 on 'Asthma Attack' – a track which is for me is only of historical interest itself.

Which brings up another tangent - am I the only one that thinks Asthma Attack is a wonderful track, beyond the historical interest?

I do like it. In my opinion, it could have been included on the original LP.

ggriffin wrote:

Which brings up another tangent - am I the only one that thinks Asthma Attack is a wonderful track, beyond the historical interest?

no,you're not.also is historic,along with Ann(full version),Asthma attack shows us the rough early Stooges.

Talking about historic things.I readed a interview of Ron Asheton in a spanish magazine(popular1,2008)and talks about the early stooges shows,that shows with whole lotta feedback,the washboard,the blender... (1968 I guess),saying that he had a good recording of one of those shows(reel tape),but he gave it to Danny Fields as a gift.Ron believed that Fields sold that tape to someone!!! Where's that tape?!?!.

OK I got a response from John Hughes saying they are looking into the slow speed issue so maybe all is not lost.

[quote="ashitanoramen"]

ggriffin wrote:

Which brings up another tangent - am I the only one that thinks Asthma Attack is a wonderful track, beyond the historical interest?

.

Really? I like the stooges very much - so much I spend a lot of money on discs that don't play right, but Asthma Attack wonderful??? It's indulgent nonesense. It's great to hear, of course, but still indulgent nonsense. The fact it has taken 40 years to see the light of day tells you something, no?

Ian

mc wrote:

OK I got a response from John Hughes saying they are looking into the slow speed issue so maybe all is not lost.

good news. thank-you.

ianianian wrote:

I like the stooges very much - so much I spend a lot of money on discs that don't play right, but Asthma Attack wonderful??? It's indulgent nonesense. It's great to hear, of course, but still indulgent nonsense. The fact it has taken 40 years to see the light of day tells you something, no?

Ian

That's quite strong but I agree.

It's great to hear what they Stooges were like before 1969 (I assume that this , like the long take of Ann give us an idea). But I'm not going to play Asthma Attack repeatedly for pure listening pleasure. It's not that great. Like LA Blues, it doesn't work as a CD/LP home listening event. It's for live experience.

But then the conclusion is why clutter up the recorded art of a band with failed outtakes and alt mixes anyway? I only need (in the Stooges case) 1st, Funhouse and Raw Power. The rest is superflous (and IMO sometimes damaging) to a band's enduring place in the recorded music landscape. Why screw with perfection?

mr.datsun wrote:

But then the conclusion is why clutter up the recorded art of a band with failed outtakes and alt mixes anyway? I only need (in the Stooges case) 1st, Funhouse and Raw Power. The rest is superflous (and IMO sometimes damaging) to a band's enduring place in the recorded music landscape. Why screw with perfection?

Throw in the eight studio demos on 'Rubber Legs' and I agree with that sentiment 100%.

Sometimes too much information is a real mystique killer.

Looking forward to Popped & (hopefully) Ugano's, but I think I'll skip this first LP re-release.

mr.datsun wrote:

ianianian wrote:

I like the stooges very much - so much I spend a lot of money on discs that don't play right, but Asthma Attack wonderful??? It's indulgent nonesense. It's great to hear, of course, but still indulgent nonsense. The fact it has taken 40 years to see the light of day tells you something, no?

Ian

That's quite strong but I agree.

It's great to hear what they Stooges were like before 1969 (I assume that this , like the long take of Ann give us an idea). But I'm not going to play Asthma Attack repeatedly for pure listening pleasure. It's not that great. Like LA Blues, it doesn't work as a CD/LP home listening event. It's for live experience.

But then the conclusion is why clutter up the recorded art of a band with failed outtakes and alt mixes anyway? I only need (in the Stooges case) 1st, Funhouse and Raw Power. The rest is superflous (and IMO sometimes damaging) to a band's enduring place in the recorded music landscape. Why screw with perfection?

My personal viewpoint is I like the odds and ends sometimes.

With the Stooges, I like Scene of the Crime...while I wasn't sure I wanted to hear it live at Hammersmith (it came to mind as a song they might do, but I was sort of glad they didn't try it), but even more so I like Sick of You, Gimme Some Skin, Open Up and Bleed, Johanna...

That said with this first album rehash, I'd like it, but can't afford it, and certainly can't justify trying to get the money together before the speed issue is resolved...

I got mine today, great package but the speed problem is just absurd, the songs are unlistenable

This has been added to the Rhino page at the bottom of the release details:

PRODUCTION NOTE:

We at Rhino Handmade wanted to shed some light on the questions that have been raised regarding several of the bonus tracks on our Collector’s Edition of The Stooges’ debut album.

The John Cale Mixes that were featured on the 2005 Deluxe Edition of the album were pitch corrected from the existing mix reel, which is the only existing master in our vaults. For the new Collector’s Edition, no pitch correcting was done and we left the songs exactly as they are found on the master. The same master was used for both releases.

The speed issue is rather odd. I did a speed-corrected version of the Cale mixes that matches the album mixes, but I noticed on the 2005 version of the album that those Cale mixes don't completely match the speed of the album mixes. I wonder if Cale himself could shed some light on these issues.

I think this has been mentioned before but it seems, despite what Rhino says, that the source of the Cale mixes has been different for each reissue of the album. The "Handmade/Collector's" edition seems to be from a better sounding tape, though I noticed at least one part that sounded like the tape was damaged. Was the tape a reference copy? Is it from the WEA archives, someone in the band's collection or was it provided by Cale himself? I don't have the actual release of the "Handmade/Collector's" edition, rather I have the two-disc promo version that was sent to press, so I can't read the liners although I don't recall any details being given about the source on the 2005 reissue.

On top of all this, if they speed corrected the master for the 2005 reissue, why not do it this time? And if they did it in 2005, why couldn't they make it match the album mixes perfectly? 20 minutes got me pretty close to perfect, if not perfect or as close as can be gotten, and once I had the settings for one track they matched for the rest of them. I suppose it's acceptable if the master is slow to receive the "slow" version but you would think they would have explained this in the liners or somewhere. It's a pretty important detail!

They sound like the same tape to me, they've got the same level of background hiss.

I completely agree that for these Handmade issues which are basically bought by hardcore fans tape sources etc should be explained.

Quick update: The track that seems to have damage to the tape is the Cale mix of I Wanna Be Your Dog on the new reissue. The damage seems to occur in the right channel during the song's first verse. It's worth noting that the channels seem to have been flipped from the version on the 2005 reissue.

These little details are really making me wonder about the legitimacy of Rhino's statement about using the same tapes. I would be utterly shocked if someone told me that Rhino found the Cale mixdown tapes in 04/05 and didn't make a high-end digital transfer of them for future reference. That would mean they would have to re-transfer the master for this release, which could explain the tape damage in Dog, although who knows if the tape has been reviewed several times since then internally. Regardless, for something they probably looked at several years ago and thought might be suitable for potential inclusion on a future release you would think they would have put more thought into preserving it.

The only thing I can think of to explain this is that someone could argue they have better equipment now than five years ago and that a re-transfer could be an improvement, but we're talking about a major label subsidiary that specializes in reissues and is known for having some of the best equipment for doing such things, so I can't put much faith in that idea.

If anyone from Rhino might find themselves reading this post, none of this is meant with disrespect as I honestly feel you guys do a fantastic job, but there are some serious issues here that should be dealt with as honestly as possible. Repeat issues like these are what will erode your customer base.

unheard78 wrote:

If anyone from Rhino might find themselves reading this post, none of this is meant with disrespect as I honestly feel you guys do a fantastic job, but there are some serious issues here that should be dealt with as honestly as possible. Repeat issues like these are what will erode your customer base.

You are being far too kind

mc wrote:

This has been added to the Rhino page at the bottom of the release details:

PRODUCTION NOTE:

We at Rhino Handmade wanted to shed some light on the questions that have been raised regarding several of the bonus tracks on our Collector’s Edition of The Stooges’ debut album.

The John Cale Mixes that were featured on the 2005 Deluxe Edition of the album were pitch corrected from the existing mix reel, which is the only existing master in our vaults. For the new Collector’s Edition, no pitch correcting was done and we left the songs exactly as they are found on the master. The same master was used for both releases.

So they DID have the Cale-mixes available in 2005, but decided not to release them all then?

ANN is how Cale mix? It's better than the normal version?