What's a "real" Stooge?

Let me explain: in many interviews for french rock magazines, Iggy said that there were only three Stooges: Ron, Scott and of course, Iggy himself. When The Weirdness came out, Iggy told french critic Philippe Manoeuvre: "Mike Watt is not a real Stooge, we regard him as a business partner. Same thing for Steve Mackay. You sureley understood it, there are only three Stooges..."

I think that's a little bit unfair for Watt, though he's fine with that. But by stating this, Iggy implicitly told us that people like James Williamson and Scott Thurston were never considered as "Stooges".

What do you think about it??

Hmm. Guess Dave Alexander just happened to be filling in on bass duties for the two best records ever made, then. Not bad for a bit-part player.

Seriously, though, without having read any of these interviews for myself, I imagine Iggy was just talking about the immediate context of the early reunion shows and The Weirdness, that he and the Ashetons were the Stooges of old who drafted in Watt for the vacant bassist spot.

I presume you've read the whole of these interviews and so you'll be in a better position to judge what he might have been implying by this remark.

Everything Ig says has to be taken with the perverbial grain of salt. To make too much out of anything he says is a losing battle. At this stage of the game, I'll take my Stooges where I can get them.

I'm gonna try to scan and post those interviews, ok?
But unfortunately for you guys, they are in french, and I don't have time to translate them integrality.

Kinda like Keith Richards. He considers the Stones to be Him, Mick, and Charlie. I guess there's a special affinity (and maybe a little snobbery) among band members who were together for the entire run.

Cherry wrote:

But by stating this, Iggy implicitly told us that people like James Williamson and Scott Thurston were never considered as "Stooges".

What do you think about it??

Imagine what it would have meant if Iggy had stated in an interview, at the time of The Weirdness release, that James Williamson was one of the real Stooges to him...

c-deep wrote:

Imagine what it would have meant if Iggy had stated in an interview, at the time of The Weirdness release, that James Williamson was one of the real Stooges to him...

Yeah, that's my point. I have also Iggy interview (french magazine Rock'N'Folk - 2004) where he said about Williamson: "James is a Scorpio, he must kill"

As a matter of fact, Iggy often said bad things about James in interviews since the Stooges reunited, and even before. But it only took him a few months to propose him to perform again with the Stooges after Ron's death.

Quote :

Iggy often said bad things about James in interviews since the Stooges reunited, and even before. But it only took him a few months to propose him to perform again with the Stooges after Ron's death.

It's Rock business, not everyday life. That's why, I guess

Yeah, you're right, but I don't think Iggy needed that "business". Why not to hire Steve Jones then?

To me Iggy & the Stooges were more of a mutation than a continuation, a one-off experiment in band member loss and repatriation that wouldn't really have worked with any other sort of band. Almost like the same band but with the clocks set back to zero, a fresh start.

Can you imagine Led Zeppelin splitting up, Plant reforming in L.A. and then asking Jimmy to rejoin but play Bass instead to make room for some other guy? The same goes for any other 'classic' band from that period. Even if they had, would they have then been able to top their previous benchmark albums? Had they split in 1971 and never regrouped in London in '72 we would still be raving about 'The Stooges' and 'Funhouse'. Had they not split at all, recorded their proposed 3rd album for Elektra (which was pretty much already there as YWMA proves) and managed another studio effort for CBS (the great, long lost 'Open Up & Bleed') then the debate on James would not be taking place.

He may not have been a founding member and even Ron never regarded him as legit (Mojo feature, early 2010), but in his own twisted way James Williamson is and always will be a true Stooge.

clap clap clap

beautiful dude

your right!

blackout88 wrote:

To me Iggy & the Stooges were more of a mutation than a continuation, a one-off experiment in band member loss and repatriation that wouldn't really have worked with any other sort of band. Almost like the same band but with the clocks set back to zero, a fresh start.

Can you imagine Led Zeppelin splitting up, Plant reforming in L.A. and then asking Jimmy to rejoin but play Bass instead to make room for some other guy? The same goes for any other 'classic' band from that period. Even if they had, would they have then been able to top their previous benchmark albums? Had they split in 1971 and never regrouped in London in '72 we would still be raving about 'The Stooges' and 'Funhouse'. Had they not split at all, recorded their proposed 3rd album for Elektra (which was pretty much already there as YWMA proves) and managed another studio effort for CBS (the great, long lost 'Open Up & Bleed') then the debate on James would not be taking place.

He may not have been a founding member and even Ron never regarded him as legit (Mojo feature, early 2010), but in his own twisted way James Williamson is and always will be a true Stooge.

I agree with most of your points. However I think that the YWMA recordings prove that James was in charge of direction almost immediately, they are such a huge change from Funhouse, almost like they kept the structure but changed the essence. This difference becomes even more striking when you compare the regular sets to Ron's Jam and What You Gonna Do, even She Creatures From Hollywood Hills. My point is the change happened before the initial breakup, not after the move to London, where they basically trimmed their new style and brought it up to speed.
I would compare James' role to that of Bootsy Collins with Parliament / Funkadelic. Is Bootsy a legit member? Hell yes, imo (and I'm sure Billy Nelson would disagree, like Ron). Not to take anything away from Ron, quite the opposite, but to me the Stooges are a two-headed beast like Funkadelic with Maggot Brain and One Nation Under A Groove. Like Bootsy, James entered the picture earlier than he is widely given credit for and he even was an aquaintance in the group's founding days (if I'm correct). This and his attitude make him a legit Stooge to me (and that's why I want him and Ed Cherney to do the Ashetons justice and remix Raw Power).
Btw, if the Stooges had split in '71 we might be raving about the debut and Funhouse but the impact of the King's Cross show, Raw Power and Metallic K.O. shouldn't be underestimated either.

c-deep wrote:

However I think that the YWMA recordings prove that James was in charge of direction almost immediately, they are such a huge change from Funhouse, almost like they kept the structure but changed the essence. This difference becomes even more striking when you compare the regular sets to Ron's Jam and What You Gonna Do, even She Creatures From Hollywood Hills.

I would disagree, I think James and Ron are pretty equal on song-writing terms. While the first half of the set is obviously James ("I Got A Right", "You Don't Want My Name", "Fresh Rag") I think the second half ("Dead Body", "Big Time Bum" and "Do You Want My Love?") sound like Ron material and aren't anything like James' song-writing style apart from BTB which it's self has been traced back to 1970 (before James joined that year) as "Way Down In Egypt".

You could be right concerning the second half. Did BTB evolve from Heavy Score (from Ungano's)? I hear a similarity there.

All interesting points. I would have to agree with G, F#, E on the Ron/James song writing duties though, i think its pretty obvious that its almost a clear split between the two (with maybe a convergence on 'Do You Want My Love' perhaps?)

No matter how much i listen to YWMA, im still intrigued by that whole 1971 period. They sound like a nuclear bomb that never got to explode. There's an interview where James discusses playing some of the Funhouse material while Steve was still in the band and having in the region of 8 or 9 of his own songs in the set by the time of the first split. I'd give my left nut to hear a rehearsal of it! I think 'Im Sick of You' is the only confirmed song to be of the same time as the rest of YWMA.

blackout88 wrote:

There's an interview where James discusses playing some of the Funhouse material while Steve was still in the band and having in the region of 8 or 9 of his own songs in the set by the time of the first split.

Do you have a link to the interview?

Looking for it just now but cant seem to find it anywhere, it was definitely on here somewhere and he seems kind of aloof in it. He talks about coming in after Steve was kicked out but then how he returned for a few shows and how they were still playing a very limited amount of funhouse material when he joined. He mentions that his songs were incorporated pretty much straight away along with Ron's and that the band was rehearsing roughly 8 or 9 of his by the end.

'Im Sick of You' was originally entitled 'Goodbye Betsy' and played around this time and i can imagine maybe even 'Scene of the Crime' originating here too. Like i said, a rehearsal or more solid info would be great but they all seemed to have been so fucked up at this time we're lucky anything exists at all.

It's all in ones perspective of the band, I came in at Raw Power, so James is the guitar player even though I know Ron was just as good at playing and song writing, but I found out that later. The best case scenario would have been to continue with the YWMA lineup into Raw Power.

I would think that anyone who played with the Stooges in the '60's-'70's should be considered an official Stooge

c-deep wrote:

You could be right concerning the second half. Did BTB evolve from Heavy Score (from Ungano's)? I hear a similarity there.

Yes it is, Rhino fucked up the title, according to Nat's Popped from 1970 its called "Way Down In Egypt".

When did Tight Pants and Gimme Some Skin originate? I know they were rehersed in 1972 but what are the chances that they had some basis from the pre-split 1971 period?

the 1971 songs are so punk, so fast, sooo ahead of it's time...




i love 'em so much!

really love the YWMA box set...

It's a shame that Jimmy Recca did not take part in the reunion!

I don't think they knew where he was I don't think anyone knew were he was!

951Sib wrote:

It's a shame that Jimmy Recca did not take part in the reunion!

Who knows what the future will bring, they have had contact with each other at least on FB. Jimmy is also a guitar player, I could see him as a 2nd guitar player more than the bassist at this point.

studioguy wrote:

951Sib wrote:

It's a shame that Jimmy Recca did not take part in the reunion!

Who knows what the future will bring, they have had contact with each other at least on FB. Jimmy is also a guitar player, I could see him as a 2nd guitar player more than the bassist at this point.

This Jimmy Recca thing has been going on since he's been "found" again. As James, Scott and Recca all have facebook and nothing has surfaced I think we can all safely assume something has stopped that in Stooge camp and it won't happen. I may be wrong but if something were to happen I think it would have happened by now.