Liquid Power 6-disc download @ amazon.com

Hi everyone,

has anyone got this:

http://www.amazon.com/Liquid-Power-Explicit/dp/B003U27Z44/ref=sr_1_17/175-8556892-2210730?ie=UTF8&s=dmusic&qid=1298812980&sr=1-17

Is it worth the download or not? Please share your opinion! Some of the samples really sound good to me ....

At a quick glance, it appearers to be the Heavy Liquid box set minus all the cool stuff that came with the hard copy.

Bootlegged by Tony DeFries, along with a lot of other Bomp 72-74 era material. Fairly stunning that he's able to get away with this.

If it is DeFries pirating stooges stuff,it stands to reason that if there is a tape of the UK show they did in 72 or whenever it was,You would think he'd try cashing in on it

Monger wrote:

If it is DeFries pirating stooges stuff,it stands to reason that if there is a tape of the UK show they did in 72 or whenever it was,You would think he'd try cashing in on it

true. He's real bad at coming up with titles too, this one's almost as bad as Roadkill Rising - Whoever came up with that should be shot.

It's a disgrace that he's doing this. Across various MP3 releases he's ripped off Heavy Liquid, all the Bomp stuff and even the new Raw Power set. Talk about a dis-incentive for people like Easy Action to keep on putting stuff out. I can't believe there's no way of stopping him.

i may be wrong but didn't DeFries sign iggy to a ten year deal in 1971 so could have some rights to or ownership of this material.

I was listening to half of them, and heard the song "Hey Baby".

Did Hey Baby later become Hey Peter?

or was it Hey Peter then later Hey Baby?

He's real bad at coming up with titles too, this one's almost as bad as Roadkill Rising - Whoever came up with that should be shot.

Or run over maybe

Any idea if they are of better quality than the Heavy Liquid set? Gotta agree that the guy sucks for putting this out...and what an awful name for it!

I doubt (although can't say for certain because I won't buy it) that it's an improvement on Easy Actions' Heavy Liquid set because if nothing else it's the crappy lossy mp3 download format he's selling it in however maybe just maybe he does have the London Kings Cross cinema show somewhere and if all this mp3 rip off rubbish which is popping up here there and everywhere is just a case of testing the water (checking out the market) in preparation for the Iggy & the Stooges London '72 show release then... Well.... We can but hope!

Well maybe something good and worthwhile will come from this release, then!

hmm...good point, yes I guess it is *possible* he has a King's Cross recording...

It won't be an improvement on the existing release because it will have been ripped directly from a copy of the Easy Action set. You can listen to it on Spotify to check for yourself.

I suppose DeFries *might* have a claim on this material if there was a 10 year deal starting in '71 (or presumably '72) - but if that's the case, where's he been for the past 35 years while Ig's been releasing solo material on RCA and Arista, and Bomp/Skydog/Revenge/Easy Action/Rhino etc have been industriously releasing the old stuff? Preusumably he could have sued any/all of them and cleaned up if he really had a claim on them.

Besides which, MainMan was a management company. It was never a record company. Raw Power, the only album recorded while the Stooges were with them, is surely owned by CBS/Columbia. So if he doesn't even own that, why is DeFries claiming ownership of all these other recordings that he had nothing to do with?

Also, as we all know, the agreement between Iggy and MainMan was torn up sometime in 1973. So surely he can forget about anything that happened after that, irrespective of what they originally agreed?

Anything is possible, but at the risk of being a party pooper I would suggest that if DeFries, or anyone for that matter, had a copy of the Kings Cross show that they were willing to market, then they would have done so by now.
And as far as we know the concert wasn't recorded professionally.

As for the downloadeable Stooges tracks - the problem is really who actually owns these recordings? The constant reissuing of the Stooges 1972-74 rehearsals / out-takes / live tracks points to the fact that no-one seems to have any degree of control of this material. I know Easy Action at least obtained the approval of the Stooges, but most issues of this stuff don't even bother with that.

And it is clear that the original tapes are not being used, simply digital copies of previous digital copies.

So who has the actual original tapes? Do they still exist?

Cheers,
Richard

The owner of a sound recording, generally speaking, is the person or organisation responsible for bringing it into existence in the first place. So that could be the record label, an independent production company, or the band themselves.

The recording of pre-Raw Power stuff like I Got A Right might have been financed by MainMain, so theoretically DeFries may have a claim on that. Or it might belong to the band, or it might have been done through CBS. Who knows.

Raw Power was recorded at CBS Studios, on CBS's dollar, while the band were under contract to CBS. So we can pretty conclusively say that the album is owned by the CBS/Columbia/Sony empire.

The Detroit rehearsal material was probably organised by the band independently - ie they maybe chose to buy some reels of tape, borrow a tape recorder and set it up in the practice space. So they're free to licence it to whoever they want - such as Easy Action.

The live recordings are unofficial tapes made by audience members, presumably without the band's permission. So that could be kind of a grey area - does the bootlegger hold the rights to the recording? Or does it belong to the band really? Or when stuff has been freely traded around the world for 30 years, does that place it in the public domain?

James Williamson famously sold a box of tapes to Bomp in about 1977, which is the source for all the Detroit rehearsal stuff, I Got a Right, I'm Sick of You, etc etc. So perhaps Bomp own the rights to all that material - except that their original cheque to Williamson allegedly bounced, which could in fact mean that they arguably own nothing!

Messy, isn't it?

mark wrote:

James Williamson famously sold a box of tapes to Bomp in about 1977, which is the source for all the Detroit rehearsal stuff, I Got a Right, I'm Sick of You, etc etc. So perhaps Bomp own the rights to all that material - except that their original cheque to Williamson allegedly bounced, which could in fact mean that they arguably own nothing!

Messy, isn't it?

Ha-ha! It's definitely a minefield! Surely Amazon must have had a basic check to see the validity of his ownership before they put it out...otherwise any old bootlegger could put stuff up for download.

Damian.H wrote:

Surely Amazon must have had a basic check to see the validity of his ownership before they put it out...otherwise any old bootlegger could put stuff up for download.

Good point - Amazon wouldn't risk their reputation unless there was something legal on the table.
But quite what Defries' claim to all this material actually is is a complete mystery.

Lots of good points from Mark too. I'm of the opinion that anything released and sold in legitimate shops with the Stooges name on it ought to see royalties heading in the band's direction, but I'm well aware that this isn't always the case. Surely the copyright on the rehearsal material at the very least should reside with the band, even if the legal ownership of say the pre-Raw Power recordings rests with MainMan (perhaps).

What I'm most interested in is who actually possesses the master tapes of all these recordings. For example, the tapes that JW sold to Bomp! - where are they now, as the originals haven't been used in all these multiple reissues.

The legality of this sale is also open to question as JW sold his copies of various tapes, not the master recordings (apart from Kill City but that's another story). Each Stooge had a copy of the Metallic KO recordings, of the extensive 1973 rehearsals. So despite JW's sale of his copies, which I assume must confer some sort of legal ownership to Bomp! (even though their cheque bounced!) how much say did the other Stooges have when Bomp issued all this stuff, or when Revenge subsequently issued more? Interestingly Ron Asheton is frequently thanked on the Revenge releases - did he loan them his copies?

What happened to the other copies, and most importantly what happened to the original tapes?

It sure is messy!

Cheers,

R

Good points!

adams66 wrote:

What I'm most interested in is who actually possesses the master tapes of all these recordings. For example, the tapes that JW sold to Bomp! - where are they now, as the originals haven't been used in all these multiple reissues.

The legality of this sale is also open to question as JW sold his copies of various tapes, not the master recordings (apart from Kill City but that's another story). Each Stooge had a copy of the Metallic KO recordings, of the extensive 1973 rehearsals. So despite JW's sale of his copies, which I assume must confer some sort of legal ownership to Bomp! (even though their cheque bounced!) how much say did the other Stooges have when Bomp issued all this stuff, or when Revenge subsequently issued more? Interestingly Ron Asheton is frequently thanked on the Revenge releases - did he loan them his copies?

What happened to the other copies, and most importantly what happened to the original tapes?

Is there actually any evidence that the tapes JW sold to Bomp weren't the original and only copies? I don't think I've ever seen anything to suggest this.

The Revenge stuff seems most likely to have been sourced from copies that Bomp's Greg Shaw traded with various people. In the few cases where Bomp has put out the same takes, their recordings are noticeably better. Lots of people are thanked on the Revenge releases including Greg Shaw himself, but I get the strong impression he had no say whatsoever in them coming out - don't know about Ron, though.

When I spoke with Greg Shaw during the early 1980's, he told me that James Williamson had delivered "a large cache" of tapes to him which were mostly unlabelled. Amongst them Greg found master tapes for the "I'm Sick Of You" EP, but there is no firm evidence that the rehearsal tapes were master copies. However, Greg copied a few of these tapes for me, and based on this I can state that the quality is better than much of what has been released since. The tracks "She Creatures..." and "Til The End Of The Night" ('Untitled') on the single that came free with Spiral Scratch magazine were taken from my copies. Circumstantial evidence would therefore indicate that the Bomp tapes were masters. Greg originally told me that he had planned an album of this stuff, but that Iggy was not enthusiastic about the idea. However, after I had written the Spiral Scratch article Greg told me that it was DeFries who originally objected, but later gave his blessing.

The "Studio Rehearsals 73-74" bootleg contains stuff not on the tapes supplied to me by Greg, and this release has a much better sound than when those tracks were released officially (they are also at the correct speed).

So far as unofficial live tapes are concerned, it depends on who makes the recording. While there is only one tape in existence, the bootlegger 'owns' that tape. However, the artist/publisher/management/whoever owns the recording contained within it. The recording cannot therefore be released without the agreement of both parties. However, once the master tape is copied (often several times) the bootlegger is effectively taken out of the picture as there is no proof that 'his' recording was used. Of course, the artist may still choose to track down the master tape if a release is planned, whereupon the original 'agreement' circumstances would be re-applied.

Regarding DeFries, I am guessing that he has seen Revenge, Bomp, Easy Action and whoever else cashing in on these tapes without any problems, and simply decided to grab his own share of the pie on that basis. Ironically, if there was a tape of the '72 Kings Cross show, this would be the one that he would be most likely to hold any rights to.

mc wrote:

Monger wrote:

If it is DeFries pirating stooges stuff,it stands to reason that if there is a tape of the UK show they did in 72 or whenever it was,You would think he'd try cashing in on it

true. He's real bad at coming up with titles too, this one's almost as bad as Roadkill Rising - Whoever came up with that should be shot.

Save a bullet for the clown who concocted the "I'm Hungry" farce on the RP box set.

andrew wrote:

In the few cases where Bomp has put out the same takes, their recordings are noticeably better.

Yeah right. Their release of "I Come From Nowhere" (aka Born In A Trailer) on the Wild Love CD , billed as "never before released in any form, anywhere!", is nothing but a copy from the Revenge CDs (Till The End Of The Night). Likewise their "She Creatures Of The Hollywood Hills" on the Open Up And Bleed! CD is a straight dub from Revenge.
And the rest of the studio material on that CD is so obviously sourced from vinyl. There have been a few instances where their takes are better quality, but they are few and far between.

There is no recording of the Kings Cross show. You people need to stop dreaming.

sizeable bulge wrote:

Yeah right. Their release of "I Come From Nowhere" (aka Born In A Trailer) on the Wild Love CD , billed as "never before released in any form, anywhere!", is nothing but a copy from the Revenge CDs (Till The End Of The Night). Likewise their "She Creatures Of The Hollywood Hills" on the Open Up And Bleed! CD is a straight dub from Revenge.
And the rest of the studio material on that CD is so obviously sourced from vinyl. There have been a few instances where their takes are better quality, but they are few and far between.

You're right that "I Come From Nowhere" is the same take on both releases, so "never before released in any form, anywhere!" is a false claim, but Bomp's release on Wild Love is most definitely not sourced from Revenge's "Till The End Of The Night" as the Revenge version is less complete, starting further into the take. I doubt they sourced "She Creatures" from Revenge either, but I haven't looked into it, so I'd be prepared to be proved wrong on that.

Yes most or all of the stuff on "Open Up and Bleed" is not sourced from Bomp's tapes (despite their claims) and much of it is ultimately from the "Studio Rehearsals '73-74" vinyl bootleg. (This has been gone into here before.) However, leaving that release aside, in the other cases (and as I said there are only a few, as there isn't too much overlap between what Bomp and Revenge have put out in terms of takes) the Bomp releases are better quality.

Damian.H wrote:

mark wrote:

James Williamson famously sold a box of tapes to Bomp in about 1977, which is the source for all the Detroit rehearsal stuff, I Got a Right, I'm Sick of You, etc etc. So perhaps Bomp own the rights to all that material - except that their original cheque to Williamson allegedly bounced, which could in fact mean that they arguably own nothing!

Messy, isn't it?

Ha-ha! It's definitely a minefield! Surely Amazon must have had a basic check to see the validity of his ownership before they put it out...otherwise any old bootlegger could put stuff up for download.

Amazon do sell bootlegs. http://www.amazon.co.uk/Zeppelin-Final-Kingdome-Seattle-Region/dp/B000VI0UII/ref=sr_1_69?s=dvd&ie=UTF8&qid=1299501755&sr=1-69. It's been taken down now but I don't think they check beforehand.