john cale

A recent thread has got me thinking again about the extent of Cale's influence on the first album. obviously he plays viola on 'We will fall', did he also come up with the sleigh bells on 'Dog'? and didn't he do an awful mix of 'Dog' on which you can hardly hear the guitar (sacrilegious as it is to even imagine such a thing)
also, I recently had a re-listen to 'White Light White Heat' and then put on the Stooges' debut straight after, and that proved quite illuminating as I kind of got the feeling that maybe, on 'Not Right' Cale was trying to get Ron to copy his own organ-playing with the VU (certainly on the likes of 'Sister Ray'), as Ron produces all those unholy 'squelching' sounds on the solo on 'Not Right' that don't really sound like a guitar at all, it's just an incredible effect. what do others think? is this 'organ' comparison valid?

I've always understood that Cale was encouraged by Elektra to try to 'tame' the Stooges in the studio. Of course he pretty much failed, but it was his job, as producer, to ensure that the songs were captured on tape cleanly. The Stooges didnt have enough clout to refuse - they really wanted the record to sound like the live show and attempted to play everything with the amps right up to 11, Spinal Tap style. But had to back down slightly when Cale explained that, technically, it wasn't possible to record the album properly that way. So to get the record made they had to agree to Cale's wishes. (By the time of Fun House they had more experience of the studio and the production was more of a collaboration between Gallucci and the band in terms of the sound they all wanted - and Fun House ended up sounding much more like the band's live set.)

Cale decided to kind of sweeten a few tracks with percussion effects (but how did anyone think that those sleigh bells were a good idea??) but on the whole there was little Cale could do to alter the very basic sound of the Stooges except record the band very dry and clean. This has the effect of creating an oddly polite sounding album, despite the fearsome sounds being played. Rather than trying to get Ron to copy the WL/WH album (I get the impression that no-one can make Ron do anything that Ron doesn't want to do) I always thought that Cale must have been pleasantly surprised when elements of the Sooges first album vaguely echoed the noisefest of WL/WH.
Great album, that Stooges debut.
Cheers,
Richard

I dunno. By that time, Cale was already a very accomplished musician, and to try to get a relative novice to follow Cale's own music structures would probably be asking a lot. I got the impression those squelching sounds were simply from a wah-wah (like at the intro to 1969).

Adams66 supports my thoughts, that Cale's influence is felt from the production/engineering standpoint and not necessarily the actual playing.

Bear in mind this was Cale's production debut. He'd done (magnificent) arrangements for Nico, but he himself admits he was wet behind the ears as a producer.

Bear in mind also, the Stooges were absolute studio novices, but also acted, as their manager Jimmy Silver said, like "wilful, truculent children". Iggy's experience in the studio comprised one single, as a drummer (plus playing bass drum on one song by The Rationals).

They were exceptionally inexperienced compared to most bands about to make an album, and Cale was absolutely open to their experimentation and out-there-ness - not many people would be. Both Danny Fields and Jimmy Silver bear absolute testament to this. I don't think he was hired to water down their sound - would you expect this from the man who played organ on Sister Ray or those insane arrangements on Marble Index??

The story of how those first two albums came together is fascinating in my mind. It's frustrating sometimes that people comment usually on the (admittedly intriguing) excesses of Iggy, and not on how his music happened.

Be very careful, also, of the many myths propagated by iggy of how he did this (remixed the debut album, or even effectively produced it himself) or did that (produced Fun House himself). He was indeed a visionary but he was very lucky indeed to work with people like Cale and Don Gallucci.

Edit: one one last thing, Cale earned his fee for the piano part on Dog alone. It's inspired. He spotted its weird, droney quality and emphasised it. Perhaps, as with some of the other songs, it made the album more arty (Iggy's criticism) and less raw rock'n'roll, but that adds a unique appeal - and of course if you want raw rock'n'roll you still have Fun House.

yeah, sure, you can see the first album is a more Art-Rock oriented album, just like "White Light/White Heat" (what a album!!!).

Thanks for the comments guys, i love the debut album, loads, its a tremendous album, just takes you somewhere, like funhouse and raw power, but it got me wondering, i know that they wrote i think it was not right, little doll and real cool time the night before, but did they play these songs in shows after and is there a recording of these being played?

you guys sure are well-informed. It's just I never thought of comparing Ron's guitar to anything other than, well, other guitars, until after that listen to 'Sister Ray'! Never thought of comparing it to an organ before that, but I do kinda think it's a good comparison, it SOUNDS a bit like an organ, that 'Not Right' solo. nobody but Ron could've got such sounds out of an ordinary electric guitar (just how does he play?? I mean I've seen video clips of him playing and he doesn't SEEM to do anything special. It's just an eternal mystery to me. If I ever meet the man I'll have some serious questions to ask him.)
And yeah I thought that Cale probably didn't mamange to influence the band much, although obviously he had to 'produce' them and all. I think the sleigh bells on 'Dog' do work pretty well actually, whoever had the most 'influence' there! Quite innovative, and all - all part of the avant-garde, 'musique concrete' type of stuff the band liked to try, anyway.
And just for the record, I think Cale's organ-playing on 'Sister Ray' is pretty damn good - puts the guitars in the shade on that track!
and 'Funhous'e as 'raw rock'n'roll'? what about the jazz elements? altho I suppose 'rock'n'roll' is, or can be, quite a broad term

I don't think that Cale was trying to water the Stooges down, just that as his first production job he was attempting to capture the Stooges on tape as best he could, but this meant ensuring that they turned everything down just a bit.
Paul is so right in reminding us that it's Iggy that subsequently claimed that Cale and Elektra tried to tone them down, but as with most things that Iggy says a large pinch of salt is often required!
Cheers,
Richard

Iggy certainly has something of a tendency for self-aggrandisement!
What Ron has to say about the making of that album is at least equally as interesting.

I feel Cale was hugely instumental in the quality of the 1st album just as Bowie was on Raw Power. His tinkering turned it from a great album to a timeless classic. Look a Nico on Chelsea Girl and then on the Marble Index - Cale developed her from slightly niave but charming pop chanteuse to help produce one of the most disturbingly beautiful albums ever.

I'm certain his extended drone experience with the La Monte Young, Tony Conrad and Angus Maclise and later the Velvets had some influence on We Will Fall / I Wanna Be Your Dog.

In "White light/White Heat", Lou Reed says he was trying to make the guitar sound like a saxophone section of free jazz. Iggy and the other Stooges, also were fans of free-jazz, so maybe they just shared the same influences, that's what made "Sister Ray".

mc wrote:

I feel Cale was hugely instumental in the quality of the 1st album just as Bowie was on Raw Power. His tinkering turned it from a great album to a timeless classic. Look a Nico on Chelsea Girl and then on the Marble Index - Cale developed her from slightly niave but charming pop chanteuse to help produce one of the most disturbingly beautiful albums ever.

I'm certain his extended drone experience with the La Monte Young, Tony Conrad and Angus Maclise and later the Velvets had some influence on We Will Fall / I Wanna Be Your Dog.

you really put a good slice argument into it with this!
fits also perfectly into the We Will Fall thread.
Velvets influenced I Wanna Be your Dog: WOW
Iggy told in an interview; Nico brought the very darkest in him above.
(No salt needed )

But ' a tendency for self-aggrandisement'; that's an insult on Iggy Nadja i don't take that

Sounds fair what you're saying eusebioneto..

ZinZin wrote:

But ' a tendency for self-aggrandisement'; that's an insult on Iggy Nadja i don't take that

Dude, are you kidding? Iggy has always been like that! Just listen to his 1977 Grenada TV interview w/ Tony Wilson:

"The only reason I'm doing this is to get my face on more screens, to get my name in more papers and more print, and to expand my fame. And also to increase my financial power..."

And that's only ONE example! Funny thing, later in the interview he puts himself down, calling himself a nerd!

mg196 wrote:

ZinZin wrote:

But ' a tendency for self-aggrandisement'; that's an insult on Iggy Nadja i don't take that

Dude, are you kidding? Iggy has always been like that! Just listen to his 1977 Grenada TV interview w/ Tony Wilson:

"The only reason I'm doing this is to get my face on more screens, to get my name in more papers and more print, and to expand my fame. And also to increase my financial power..."

And that's only ONE example! Funny thing, later in the interview he puts himself down, calling himself a nerd!

mg196 wrote:

Funny thing, later in the interview he puts himself down, calling himself a nerd!

That is precisely why he says those things, i believe its a front so people dont see the nerd, i dont believe iggy has a tendency for self-aggrandisement, i think he deliberately works it in - as though to say to people that he is worth what he claims to be worth though on the inside he probably doesnt believe he is

well, ZinZin I didn't mean to 'insult' Iggy or annoy anyone on this board ...

I was just referring to a trait in his character. Alright maybe I used the wrong term. Maybe I should've just said 'he has a talent for self-promotion', would that have gone down better? He knows how to put himself forward, I wish I did!!
About Cale - I'd forgotten that he plays piano on 'Dog', as well. I came across an interview with him online, he seemed quite a droll guy!

homesickjameswilliamson wrote:

i don't believe iggy has a tendency for self-aggrandisement

agree totally with..

Mg: the example you give..is not an example on a form of 'self-aggrandisement'.
Iggy knew what he wanted. And was honest about it. So What?!
Don't forget: we're looking at this NOW. what seems now an extreme aware of himself attitude..but
what if Iggy wouldn't have got this fame. than it was just: no smart text and self aware attitude at all! it would've been naïve. than you maybe could've say he had a tendency for something like 'self-aggrandisement'...
Common; Iggy's a smart person!
And was always provocative! in a special way. took maximal risks on his own account to my opinion.
Maybe you better give an example from a recent interview .. ..

Nadja wrote:

...'he has a talent for self-promotion'...

:still don't agree. But that's ok.

Guys, he is a "FRONT MAN." Any Front Man who isn't a self-aggrandizing egomaniac probably isn't worth listening to.

David Lee Roth, Iggy, Lou Reed, David Ruffin, Axl, David Johansen...the list goes on and on...

Let's get the thread back on topic now...

JOHN CALE!

mg; all assholes except Iggy!
I'm out of this thread...

back to Cale!

Well he's Welsh like me so he fucking rocks! As well as having no small amount of talent.

mg196 wrote:

Guys, he is a "FRONT MAN." Any Front Man who isn't a self-aggrandizing egomaniac probably isn't worth listening to.

David Lee Roth, Iggy, Lou Reed, David Ruffin, Axl, David Johansen...the list goes on and on...

Let's get the thread back on topic now...

JOHN CALE!

Well said mg196!!!

FYI, I FINALLY purchased the Deluxe Edition with Cale mixes. I'll give you my assessment in a couple days!

I thought EVERY other stooges fan had got that deluxe edition before me

the full version of Ann is my favorite part of the remaster. the jam at the end it twice or three times as long. stunning.

Paul T wrote:

Edit: one one last thing, Cale earned his fee for the piano part on Dog alone. It's inspired. He spotted its weird, droney quality and emphasised it. Perhaps, as with some of the other songs, it made the album more arty (Iggy's criticism) and less raw rock'n'roll, but that adds a unique appeal - and of course if you want raw rock'n'roll you still have Fun House.

One of Cale's other great piano pieces is at the end of "I'm Waiting For My Man." That simple, repeated, discordant piano chord sounds like it's being played with hammers rather than fingers at the end. Beautiful!

Oh, and I don't want to re-start the Iggy debate previously in this thread, but Paul T said it right: Iggy has enjoyed creating a few myths about himself over the years. No need to debate that fact, or get upset about it - accept it and move on. 'Nuff said.

mc wrote:

Well he's Welsh like me so he fucking rocks! As well as having no small amount of talent.

Me too! Come on out of the woodwork Welsh Stooges fans.