stooges 2009 prospects?

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The pistols were not the ones that inspired musicians in the UK to 'create' punk, the stooges were.

yeh, i get that, of course, but i think whereas the stooges created the DIY attitude to music etc the pistols created the scene, or helped create it, and helped bring attention to it, helping other (better) bands get started

- also, comaman, you kinda answered your own point, the stooges singing about boredoma nd a constricting environment is a universal theme, saying the british monarchy is a joke is just..."known" - granted the pistols were the first ppl to say it, but i dont think that'll last, their other songs had more universal themes as well, and maybe they'll last, but im just saying if you took their album and placed it any other time i dont think ppl would get it, its not 'art' if you want, whereas if you placed stooges/funhouse/raw power anywhere in time - if they were released tomorrow - they would still be ground breaking and probably still misunderstood - and wouldnt need an explanation

i think the pistols would need the back story and to know about the banning and the jubilee thing, think thats what it was called, the whole environment, i dunno personally, its just how i see it, whereas say an album like bringing it all back home or highway 61 by dylan would be the same - i guess the old "if you gave it to a martian" thing comes to mind, you wouldnt have to explain, i dunno the white album, or exile on main street or sticky fingers or something, but i think, like loose said it was an attitude band and an attitude of the times or something, i dunno just seems restricted to history

[quote="homesickjameswilliamson"]

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but i think, like loose said it was an attitude band and an attitude of the times or something, i dunno just seems restricted to history

well the Queen's still around
anyway, I think there are more universal themes in their work. And quite apart from that, like I already said, it's kind of a pity that no-one just wants to talk about their guitar sound or something, But I suppose they're not meant to be at all 'musical' anyway, in the common perception. That was why I was so surprised, after hearing about all their notoriety and everything, that when I actually listened to their music it could actually sound good - such a vital guitar...Sure, the 'attitude' was there, that's what everybody always picks up on. But personally I wouldn't care about attitude if the music also didn't sound good.

Lucas wrote:

There seems to be a huge misunderstanding. The pistols were not the ones that inspired musicians in the UK to 'create' punk, the stooges were.

No The Sonics were. Yeah thats right I brought up The Sonics...and its about goddamn time somebody did!

The Sex Pistols have never denied their influences Steve Jones has said that he cringes when he sees how much he stole from Johnny Thunders (watch old footage hes right to cringe) and John Lydon has always declared his love for The Stooges. They covered "No Fun"!

Sure the Pistols weren't technically great but neither were the Stooges on their first album. And the Pistols only made one album. John Lydon's voice was much less commecial than Iggy's.

I love The Stooges more than the Sex Pistols BUT...

I believe the first Stooges album has dated more than "Nevermind The Bollocks".

DA DA DAAAA!!!!

I love it to bits and preffer it to NTB but the wah has dated. Just listen to it

And I'd say John Lydon's lyrics are just as timeless as Iggy's. Everybody goes on about how they're dated but The Stooges have two songs called "1969" and "1970" the Pistols have dated no more than that.

*ducks to avoid bullets*

You can argue that Crass are real punk (I've grown tired of them personally) or that The Exploited's unique brand of "punk by numbers" is real punk. But for me punk is simple guitar rock that pisses people off. Sure it can have elements that make it more experimental like adding a saxaphone or having provocative artwork but in the end it just has to be one big FUCK YOU that makes the hairs on the back of your neck stand up.

G, F#, E wrote:

[
I believe the first Stooges album has dated more than "Nevermind The Bollocks".

DA DA DAAAA!!!!

I love it to bits and preffer it to NTB but the wah has dated. Just listen to it

.

the only reason it seems to have dated is cuz no-one else had the sense OR the ability to do it like Ron!!!!

Yeah I'd agree with that.

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But for me punk is simple guitar rock that pisses people off. Sure it can have elements that make it more experimental like adding a saxaphone or having provocative artwork but in the end it just has to be one big FUCK YOU that makes the hairs on the back of your neck stand up.

so then are we arguing if stooges are punk? which i would never label them as

but anyway, i dot think the stooges have dated, they wer universal themes, maybe the 'wah' has dated, but i doubt it really matters to a 'lay person'

punk is dead (despite what ppl say) and stooges are fluid i think, you can play them anytime adn they dont sound dated - even if they date their titles!! lol

[quote="homesickjameswilliamson"]

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punk is dead (despite what ppl say) ! lol

depends on what people MEAN by 'punk'

I'd say The Stooges were punk but I see punk as a very broad term. They had the attitude, style and music - all 3 of which they did better than anyone else.

HJW you obviously don't listen to much punk. Punk is very underground and has been for sometime, its a genre of music it can't die.

And I'd say the Pistols did sing about univrsal themes alot of they're "attacks" were not directed at specific subjects but everything that was wrong in their lives. "God Save The Queen" is not about the queen its about the system, its about so much. "The Queen" is simply symbolism for Britain.

And I love Ron's wah but like you say HJW it dosesn't matter.

>whereas the stooges created the DIY attitude to music etc the >pistols created the scene, or helped create it, and helped bring >attention to it, helping other (better) bands get started

What better bands do you mean???

>saying the british monarchy is a joke is just..."known"
You make it sound so casual. Like it was no big deal at all. Jeez... Have you any idea how much hatred of the Pistols that song created amongst most grown ups at the time in England? Singing on a 'pop record' that the queen is a moron etc was a big tabu. Nobody had done anything like it before in music, that's why it was such a big scandal...

I recommend you to see the Pistols film "The Filth & The Fury". It does give a great understanding about the circumstances at the time and shows what it was like in Great Britain in the mid seventies.

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What better bands do you mean???

personally, ive listened to alot of UK punk stuff, adn read alot about it, and i find the only good UK punk band to be Xray Spex, in music, in lyrics in attitude, everything, poly styrene was/is brilliant

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You make it sound so casual. Like it was no big deal at all. Jeez... Have you any idea how much hatred of the Pistols that song created amongst most grown ups at the time in England? Singing on a 'pop record' that the queen is a moron etc was a big tabu. Nobody had done anything like it before in music, that's why it was such a big scandal...

hence me saying they are relegated to history, you need the history to back the music up, and yeh i know they were the first to say it, but after its said it becomes history

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HJW you obviously don't listen to much punk. Punk is very underground and has been for sometime, its a genre of music it can't die.

i listen to a lot actually, not atm as im back into a bluesier phase, but awhile ago i was totally into punk, reading all around em, listening to loads of bands, not alot of the more recent stuff, or the more hardcore stuff, never caught me, but i was/am aware of it, and yes i realise it is a musical genre, but one that remains underground because its almost like a niche, it cant grow, its stuck in history, a time warped stasis kinda thing

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I'd say The Stooges were punk but I see punk as a very broad term.

ive tried to see it as that as well, but ithink because they are so punk, but so anti punk that i cant call them that, and theyre so rock n roll, theyre so jazz, theyre so blues theyre so stooges!! that i cant think of anything to label them as, nor would i want to, they are the progenitors of so much and yet are so indistinguishable that i dont want to pin them down, theyre in the ether, above everything else

G, F#, E wrote:

And I love Ron's wah but like you say HJW it dosesn't matter.

Ron's wah DOES matter - heaps!!!! More than anything else, almost!!

homesickjameswilliamson wrote:

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What better bands do you mean???

personally, ive listened to alot of UK punk stuff, adn read alot about it, and i find the only good UK punk band to be Xray Spex, in music, in lyrics in attitude, everything, poly styrene was/is brilliant

only ONE 'better band' you can come up with, then
also to see punk as just tied to a specific 'moment' in history, trapped in history, that's a pretty narrow view in my opinion, altho of course everyone thinks different, but as G said, the system will always be there, in one form or another to rail against, or whatever, and as I already said actually the monarchy's still very much in place, etc.
It's pretty obvious that to get the full import of what the Pistols did, you have to be aware of their original, 'specific' time and place, but that applies to ANY band, even The Stooges. Context is always important, to some degree... no band ever existed in a vacuum

Also, it's pretty damn ironic, people still continuing to argue over the Pistols like this, and trying to prove that they don't matter any more or something, etc., - but it seems like they still can provoke as much controversy and debate as they ever did... and that's the whole point of them (seeing as they're NEVER discussed just in a musical sense)

OK, I've just posted three times in a row. Time to move on to debate The Clash (actually I don't have the energy now )

homesickjameswilliamson wrote
>personally, ive listened to alot of UK punk stuff, adn read alot about it, and i find the only good UK punk band to be Xray Spex

You only like ONE band out of the whole british punk scene!!!!? Wow! I'm lost for words.....


This argument started when some people here slated the Pistols for being fake music and also to be caught in a "time warp", that their music is totally irrelevant today where's the Stooges music are not. It was also stated that they didn't influence the scene in 1976/77, but the Stooges did. Some people here still maintain determined to neglect their importance no matter what people like myself (who were there), tell you. Things that are "facts" as opposed to personal opinions.

And as good as the Stooges are/were, their sound wasn't created out of nowhere either. People like the Sonics, the Kingsmen, 13th Floor Elevators etc influenced them on the same level, still the Stooges made their own sound. And so did the Pistols, even though being influenced by the Stooges among others.

As a guitarist, I can say - Ron's Wah, is a HUGE part of his guitar playing !!He needs the wah, and the Overdrive pedals the most of anything !

Without the Wah, it wouldn't even be Ron anymore... imagine Ann without wah...

comaman wrote:

Some people here still maintain determined to neglect their importance no matter what people like myself (who were there), tell you. Things that are "facts" as opposed to personal opinions..

You were not the only one to be alive in the seventies. Your personal opinion of what happened are not facts, it is just how you see things

Here's a nice list of UK Punk: http://www.punk77.co.uk/linkpage/punkbands.htm it's interesting to compare to the US list, which is much more what I'd call art rock.

This quote sums up the Pistols "The most recognisable band name and members in punk rock. The first and the best. This band alone stood in the centre of the maelstrom with their manager Malcolm McClaren conducting before they all lost the plot in a welter of acrimony and chaos. McClaren is the link between British and American punk having (mis)managed the New York Dolls and absorbed the influences around that time -Richard Hell etc. Anyway he basically got the band together. The music, lyrics & attitude were their own. Sneering vocals, incendiary guitars and a desire to shock and provoke was something not seen before."

Nadja wrote:

G, F#, E wrote:

And I love Ron's wah but like you say HJW it dosesn't matter.

Ron's wah DOES matter - heaps!!!! More than anything else, almost!!

No thats not what I meant! If you read HJW's original post you'll see what I meant. I said it doesn't matter if it sounds a bit dated.

G, F#, E wrote:

Nadja wrote:

G, F#, E wrote:

And I love Ron's wah but like you say HJW it dosesn't matter.

Ron's wah DOES matter - heaps!!!! More than anything else, almost!!

No thats not what I meant! If you read HJW's original post you'll see what I meant. I said it doesn't matter if it sounds a bit dated.

oh, OK...you had me worried there for a while

What would "1969", "Ann" and "Dirt" be without Ron's wah? I think "Dirt" has the best use of wah I've ever heard.

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only ONE 'better band' you can come up with, then

nope, the ONLY good band, to my ears i mean, i dont mean technically, actually, tahts a wrong statement, not the only good band, but they best! - i could name loads more i like over pistols or see as 'better' or more relevant but i guess that would just be as i see it

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Context is always important, to some degree... no band ever existed in a vacuum

of course, but for example with stooges, it amplifies them i think, all the stories etc and the surroundings and influences just add more to them, but what i ws saying was that if you took stooges/funohuse/rawpower and put them out 2moro, they'd be just as shocking and brilliant, and probly still as underrated as they were originally and unknown

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it seems like they still can provoke as much controversy and debate as they ever did... and that's the whole point of them

you kinda just made my and loose's point about them being an attitude band, that with the history and controversy etc they are discussed that way, and the only thing really you can say otherwise is ''pretty good lyrics, decent at worst - and good sound'' amean i have nothin against their sound or anything, i do actually like the pistols!! lol but my point is that their sound is very dated, not even dated just stuck in time and restricted to history or however i put it before

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You were not the only one to be alive in the seventies. Your personal opinion of what happened are not facts, it is just how you see things

you're totally right, thats a double standard - altho it is also my point, it seems to be a ''had to be there'' mentality

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it's interesting to compare to the US list, which is much more what I'd call art rock.

this kinda sums up why i ''only'' like xray spex, or why i hold them above, or why i pay more attention to US punk or watever, its a personal 'like', i LOVE new york in the 70s, and that punk scene, i loved the UK scene for a while, but like i say its just stuck, the US one is so different, ever changin - at least it was, btu i guess you could say art rock or US punk or whatever just changed, becoming the early rap groups and hiphop artists in the 80s to bands like the strokes nad yeah yeah yeahs now, but i love the US punk scene, everywhere not just new york, ilove detroit, cleveland wherever, any music from america at that time (obviously not any music, but most or what could be classififed as american punk, i love, so its not that i am diminishing the UK punk scene at all, i love(d) it actually, and its quite relevant etc, but is stuck in time, but the US punk scene(s) is just so open, its everything from stooges to dolls to suicide to television to ramones to patti smith to pere ubu etc

i just realised that this is a pistols discussion in a "stooges 2009 prospects" thread!!! lol

G, F#, E wrote:

What would "1969", "Ann" and "Dirt" be without Ron's wah? I think "Dirt" has the best use of wah I've ever heard.

yes indeedy - there's absolutely NOTHING better than the way that guitar just sliiiides into the wah, so effortlessly, and so beautifully, on Dirt. and the wah at the very start of '1969' - the very first notes I EVER heard of The Stooges - well that just captivated me for all time.

as for the Pistols, yes they're seen as an attitude band, that's all everyone talks about. And, on this thread, all someone said originally was that they'd like to see them tour with the Stooges or something and somehow we've ended up here again. it's beginning to seem like some people are always trying to downplay their contribution all the time just for the sake of it...it ends up confusing...I'm totally confused now... but this hasn't been the first Pistols debate on this Stooges board...haha....hopefully it will be the last tho

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but this hasn't been the first Pistols debate on this Stooges board...haha....hopefully it will be the last tho

i dunno, it is a discussion board, so we should discuss!! lol

yeh, well its not that confusing, but in the same way you see me trying to down play their importance, i see ppl tryin to give them too much credit

i do like the pistols, its just i hold other, alot of other bands, higher than them, its great music, and the sound is great etc, but i - personally - love, not so much 'evolving music' or anything, but i get 'bored' with music quickly, adn there were - to my ears better sounding bands, or bands i liked more - and i got bored with the scene anyway, not totally, ill go into now and again, but some stick longer in my mind than others , such as fall and xray spex, but again, its not that i am diminishing the pistols at all, just they seem to be stuck in the past, they were of that moment, i duno maybe the pioneers get all the arrows or somethin - though if wer're speakin of punk, i think the stooges took an awful lot of arrows! lol

but yeh, it shouldnt be confusing or anything, and we've only have two big discussions about them so its not as if im constantly downplaying their importance or anything, its just that i feel its a had to be there kinda thing, and if you werent there, then thats fine, its just a personal opinion that you like them, or that you feel they were important or relveant, i just see it, in my opinion that they are stuck in the past

perfect example, this/last years isle of wight festival thing, where pistols headlined and stooges 'supported' or watever, but pistols looked old and 'dated' nad had nothin to fight about or against (hence being an attitude band, cant rely on the music) and lydon was spouting off about arabs or islam or something, they were awful

whereas the stooges were scene stealers (i know its unfair to compare anyone to stooges at a festival cause stooges always seem to win critical praise at festivals) but anyway, adn the stooges music is still relevant as if it was a younger band, even tho they are older! lol

i dunno, its just opinion but, pistols were a great band in 1977, in 2008 all we're left with is a really good album, but again a dated album, i dunno, just seems that way