stooges 2009 prospects?

I don't know either...the goalposts seemed to have moved about quite a lot in this discussion...you started out by saying they were 'openly fake' but now you're saying something like, 'they were ok, it's just that they're stuck in 1977'..that's why it seems confusing (altho it's certainly bracing)
anyway, next time there IS a Pistols debate I'll try to keep out of it...save my blood pressure!

[qoute].you started out by saying they were 'openly fake' [/quote]


well, i said clash were the real fakers, i meant and held the point that pistols were openly fake because mclaren got them together, mclaren managaed and promoted them and mclaren fucked them, and they knew it, it was obvious (in retrospect, keep in mind im 19 and wasnt there at the time so couldnt get swept up, hence my view they dont hold up with time)

Quote :

next time there IS a Pistols debate I'll try to keep out of it

same here! haha, think we've made our points, so i'll just let the next person who signs up and wants to talk about sex pistols make their points!!

its a discussion board, and thats what we're doin, amean u wouldnt want everyone to have the same opinions would you?

HJW I'll be honest - I can't stand X-Ray Spex. Poly Styrene's voice grates my head.

But hey there fuck-face good to hear that you like The Fall! (For all you Mark E Smith deprived people thats a Fall joke)

As much as I love experimental punk/post-punk like The Fall, Bauhaus, Joy Division, Public Image Limited I go through stages where I binge on it then go without it for sometime.

However I often love to listen to just gritty punk at times too thats where the Sex Pistols come in and to be honest "Raw Power". Just great bands playing amazing music.

This is very unlike "Fun House" and the self titled debut which are two of only a few albums I listen to constantly.

I find it quite strange how you critisize Lydon's lyrics and see that as the main fault in the Sex Pistols even though they have relevance (and most of them were written when he was 17) yet you are a fan of The Fall. A band where the lyrics (which I also love) never make any sense. Heres an example from their best known song "Touch Sensitive":

And you're dying to pee
So you go behind a tree
And a Star Wars police veichle pulls up
I say gimme a taxi

Touch sensitive!
Touch sensitive!

Hey! Hey! Hey! Hey!

Its genius but it makes no sense!

And HJW I'm even younger than you and I think the Sex Pistols don't sound dated. The attitude and style maybe cliche now but the music (in my opinion) remains as confrontational as ever. "EMI" for instance is one of the most pissed-offed songs I've ever heard.

Finally the Sex Pistols were good enough for Iggy. He worked with Glen Matlock and Steve Jones and said that "Johnny Rotten puts as much bood and sweat into his work as Sigmond Freud did". Its a mutual respect thing.

im goin backwards here, but

Quote :

"Johnny Rotten puts as much bood and sweat into his work as Sigmond Freud did". Its a mutual respect thing.

he said he didnt know him, and i think he meant the work too, he was probly happy he 'inspired' this thing, but i dont think - none of us know i guess, but i think iggy was in a different place at that time

but anyway

to all this

Quote :

I find it quite strange how you critisize Lydon's lyrics and see that as the main fault in the Sex Pistols even though they have relevance (and most of them were written when he was 17) yet you are a fan of The Fall. A band where the lyrics (which I also love) never make any sense. Heres an example from their best known song "Touch Sensitive":

And you're dying to pee
So you go behind a tree
And a Star Wars police veichle pulls up
I say gimme a taxi

Touch sensitive!
Touch sensitive!

Hey! Hey! Hey! Hey!

Its genius but it makes no sense! Laughing

And HJW I'm even younger than you and I think the Sex Pistols don't sound dated. The attitude and style maybe cliche now but the music (in my opinion) remains as confrontational as ever. "EMI" for instance is one of the most pissed-offed songs I've ever heard.

valid points and everything, but i never ''really'' criticized the lyrics, i said they were good but nothing great (altho i should state i consider everything except dylan and iggy crap!)

also, yeh falls lyrics are great, but i like them for their craziness, sometimes they are quite poignant, but yeh alot of the time its crap like that haha, which is good, but yeh i like it for different reasons

Quote :

I go through stages where I binge on it then go without it for sometime.

same here, thats how i am with UK punk and other things, im just not into it atm or anything, like i said, more bluesy - though gearing up for an iggy season with this new boxset!!

Quote :

Poly Styrene's voice grates my head.

it did for me too, ironically when i was first getting into UK punk i was like ''wow, hate that'' haha, they were the ones i wouldnt go near, but back then i was into this phase where i tried to like all music, or well thats the wrong way to describe it, but i wanted to see the best in different bands etc, and i read up about xray spex and poly styrene and read the lyrics and i loved them, still do, as i say, only good (another way of saying ''best" and/or "favourite) UK punk band

Quote :

And HJW I'm even younger than you and I think the Sex Pistols don't sound dated

again, nothin against their ''sound'' or anything, but their music i dont think holds up, it seems to need to think about the time it was created it and the influences and stuff, i dunno its hard to say what i mean, but ''to my ears'' or ''to me'' i dont think its a stooges or its a funhouse or its a raw power or its a white album or its an idiot or its a highway 61 or a sticky fingers, u'no these timeless albums, that could be placed anywhere and still seem 'new' or alien u'no, pistols just sound like 77 punk - which is no bad thing of course, but im just stating that i dont see it as an album of albums or a top 10 or anything, its just a personal thing, its a top 10 in terms of influence, as funhouse would have to be like 3 or 4 or something (i'd put it higher, but im just thinkin what a magazine would do - though i did a agree with mojo's statement that little richards tutti frutti kicked rock n roll in the ass, pretty much started it) anyway, yeh i wasnt diminishing the albums lyrics or sound (though i dont rate them as high as some ppl, btu thast just personal taste obviously) but i was also statnig that i dont think time helps it, i think it cant stand up along side these timeless albums

thats it! and fall kickass!!

Lucas pointed out that "I wasn't the only one alive in the 70's". He he, very true! And that my claims on the Pistols credibility were "personal opinions only". Not really. It's a fact that they alone started the whole punk scene in the UK, which in 1977 spread out across most european countries aswell.
This is fact, period.
There's a big difference between opinions and historical facts.

Thanks for G, F#, E who at the age of 16 seems to "get" what the Pistols were about! Cool...!

Homesick said that the Pistols lyrics "were good but nothing great". OK, your opinion, you can't relate to much of it apparantly. And being in the US, I can understand that to a point.
It's my opinion though that their lyrics were pure genius.
Who else would think of hiding the word "cunt" in pronouncing of the word Vacant and manage to get it played on the BBC! :-)

Since we're mentioning bands in punk left and right, some of my personal UK faves are Slaughter & the Dogs, The Damned and Generation X. Of the US bands, apart from the obvious ones, I really loved the Dead Boys. Their 1st album "Young Loud & Snotty" is almost as good as the Bollocks album in my opinion...

i live in UK actually, so it has nothin to do with geography, i just prefer US punk to UK punk

altho i did state above anything thats not dylan and iggy, as far as lyrics go, amean i like them, ppl like neil young, the dolls had some great lyrics, tom waits esp, i dunno obviously there are too many great lyricists to count, the stones had some great lines back in the day - but nothins hit me as hard as dylan and iggy, so theyre the bar u'no!

though lyrics are as subjective, mabye more so than music, its just what appeals to ppl, liek books, maybe some things mean more to some than others, its just life, we shouldnt dig at each other for it, we should celebrate it, i think its great we have all these different musical tastes and yet at the core - the best band ever; Stooges!

a bit trite but, im not guna keep arguing about this, im gettin tired now, like nadja says, just gunna keep outta the next one -unless someone says something about stooges i dont like!! haha, bt thats the for the real world!

Gotta agree that it's starting to get a bit tiresome... And as you said, we've all made our statements, which is fine. I'm gonna put this one to rest now too... :-) Cheers...

What is missing out in the whole discussion is a remark
that The Stooges got their European fame and even their world fame
> THANKS TO THE PISTOLS and the whole UK punk wave!!!

Great point ZinZin.

homesickjameswilliamson wrote:

[

its a discussion board, and thats what we're doin, amean u wouldnt want everyone to have the same opinions would you?

no I wouldn't, actually.

ZinZin wrote:

What is missing out in the whole discussion is a remark
that The Stooges got their European fame and even their world fame
> THANKS TO THE PISTOLS and the whole UK punk wave!!!

too true zin!!

they got a alot more ppl into stooges, and gave iggy a name!

homesickjameswilliamson wrote:

ZinZin wrote:

What is missing out in the whole discussion is a remark
that The Stooges got their European fame and even their world fame
> THANKS TO THE PISTOLS and the whole UK punk wave!!!

too true zin!!

they got a alot more ppl into stooges, and gave iggy a name!

oh right. So they did have some positive influence.
I'm just glad their 'attitude' also managed to translate into some vital music (just my opinion of course) while they were at it.

Quote :

oh right. So they did have some positive influence.

i didnt say they didnt, i was just saying the point zin made, none of us had made, im not challenging they had an influence, im just saying they are stuck in that era, 77

but yeh, they did allow iggy to get some spotlight for a change, if it wasnt for it we probly wouldnt be talkin about iggy or the stooges playin atm, you know, the whole idiot/lust for life etc thing mightve made as much noise and u never know what mightve happened to his career

homesickjameswilliamson wrote:

im just saying they are stuck in that era, 77

I wouldn't say so. If you just listen to "Nevermind The Bollocks Here's The Sex Pistols" from start to finish and forget everything about the band its just a great, timeless record. It doesn't sound dated in my opinion. Rather than argue back just listen to it again first.

Quote :

just listen to it again first.

actually i listened to it twice while discussing it, just to shape the argument in my head, once thru and thru and again listenin to each song on and off, not in an order or anything, i still love the album, but, anyway, like i said im finishin arguing about it

homesickjameswilliamson wrote:

ZinZin wrote:

What is missing out in the whole discussion is a remark
that The Stooges got their European fame and even their world fame
> THANKS TO THE PISTOLS and the whole UK punk wave!!!

too true zin!!

they got a alot more ppl into stooges, and gave iggy a name!

Iggy got his name in Europe thanks to the work with Bowie. It was Iggy who made his name in Europe, not the stooges.

Lucas wrote:

Iggy got his name in Europe thanks to the work with Bowie. It was Iggy who made his name in Europe, not the stooges.

lucas maybe you first read some stuff i.e. 'The Complete Iggy Pop' there it's written down very clearly.. why the cooperation Iggy/Bowie was so welcome in Europe!
Of coarse Bowie his fame helped iggy..but that concerned only iggy..not the stooges..to get attention again.
You must know that in that time the punk movement had an extreme influence on music business overall.
Punk music changed the tastes of masses of people... even the taste of Bowie
The fame in that period Iggy got was because the pistols connected iggy and the stooges firmly to the punk movement in the media!! Stooges were sort of 'back' but it was Iggy being really out there with Bowie, right time right place. Iggy touring with a new album out > the idiot (not a punk album at all..also didn't sell that good.. but luckily iggy felt what was going on and hurried quickly into the studio to make lust for life... not to disappoint the punk expectations. so that's how iggy got back...into a certain form of fame.. riding on the punk movement with the stooges glued to his ass. Bowie could never make the stooges and iggy so important for music with only his fame.

There was fame and apriciation for the stooges within the musicscene/musicians. But the name (and succes) of the stooges with a broader public was something that followed much later. Iggy had his first breakthrough with Lust for Life and the idiot. Not much of punkrecords. Later New Values, Soldier, Party and Zombie of course had nothing at all to do with punk music.

The break through in Europe was only minor and didn't last very long. Even in the beginning of the nineties the name Igyy was not really big. I remember going to a gig in ahoy in, I think 1991, a venue of 8000 seats. The place was almost empty, a very sad sight.

Of course I read Open up and bleed and Gimme danger

Lucas main thing is that Iggy got back into musicbizz because he finally got a label on his head;
a punk label > cuz of what he had done with The Stooges!
didn't matter that much he wasn't making real (?) punk music at that moment and later on.
btw the delivery of the song Lust for Life was more than enough to be recognized as punk. That delivery gave Iggy a very specific and recognizable and usable image. Without a label stuck on ya --> yr nothing in the bizznizzzz.

Man..can't convince ya...maybe written history can.
In The Complete Iggy Pop Iggy's music development and other music influences r more clearly categorized in time.

If I remember right, it was even Bowie's recordlabel that contracted Iggy and issued the Idiot and Lust for life.

Lucas think there r 2 misunderstandings cuz of the language:

with 'label on his head' I mean that iggy got a recognizable image;
'Iggy was touted as the originator of punk, with this he got credible and revered. '
Maybe in Dutch you could say he got a recognizable Punk 'etiket'.

with lust for life it was mostly the song and delivery of it confirming the punk expectations.
an important song together with quite some stooges songs, for his further fame as originator of punk.

(yes, Bowie his label released idiot and lust for life.)

I understood what you meant. I just don't agree with you. In fact, Iggy was already past punk when the pistols became populair. If you would want to label the records of 77 and later, it would be new wave rather than punk.

It was Bowie who picked up Iggy. The idiot and lust for life were a reasonable succes, while the much better new values album didn't do shit

Lucas wrote:

I understood what you meant. I just don't agree with you.

ok..in that case you just don't wanna understand the impact and influence The Pistols had. I'm finished with arguing

Quote :

I'm finished with arguing silent
hmm..almost used a half page to get that clear

i think we're all spent, if nothin else the pistols are good for a discussion/arguement

i think its all perception, how we hear and see things, and its hard, not only to communicate what we see and hear, but why i guess

well dr phil moment over - more stooge discussion!

homesickjameswilliamson wrote:

well dr phil moment over - more stooge discussion!

hahahaha...alright than!