Ron Asheton and James Williamson

yeh u shud do it, keep us posted, hell i'll do it, although im in ireland so im hardly gonna give ann arbor a call, lol

Nadja wrote:

Loose1969 wrote:

Oh yea...did I mention that Ron is a guitar GOD?

Of course you did.

OK good. Just making sure I had that covered. Thanks.

Just so everyone knows - Jimi Hendrix was a very very very boring guitarist, save for a couple of tunes. And he was a godawful songwriter.


Someone wondered why Ron wanted Cheatham in; well, I think Ron wanted that rich, full wall-of-noiseas is heard on Fun House.

I think this magical "sound" is pretty easy to emulate.
Marshall stacks, low master vol. and high gain.
Fender.
Colorsound wha-wha.
White pants.


James' "new" sound was heavily lifted from the '68 Keith Richards-sound. Check the solo on Sympathy For The Devil (the only thing in that fuck'n dull mess of a samba that hasn't aged a bit).
Of course, he refined it and renewed it, and turn the volume fuck-high.
Thanks, James.

So. Who's best?
Ron's got the originality. And a otherworldy feel in all his solo's. But it sometimes gets a bit too much on the solo-side. (a discusting habbit that Hendrix & Clapton & others invented. Hippie scum!!)

James' got that speed and agressive attack. His songs are a bit more "instant-classic"-ish. But not an ounce of Ron's originality.

Might depend on what mood you're in. If you feel like contemplating the fluff in your navel - Ron. If you feel like getting up and wreck your living room - James.


But what I wanna know now is - Ron Ashton or Dave Alexander?

still no definitive answer as to who's best out of Asheton and Williamson, then...

which were the good couple of tunes that Hendrix managed to scare up?

of course you're right about Ron's originality, & that sound of his will always be unique and 'magical' to me, altho I admit I'm saying that as someone who knows pretty much f**k all about the technical side of guitar-playing

as for Asheton and Dave Alexander, of course you must be talking about bass here...well Ron's already got the accolade for greatest guitar-player ever, or he certainly SHOULD have, in my opinion, so I'm going for Dave Alexander!
(prob'ly do some proper 'bass' analysis later...that's all I can think of right now)

Dave was very good on bass, but Ron was a lttle more proficient on the instrument. Ron played some KILLER bass on Raw Power and all the subsequent bootlegs.


**ducks rotten tomatoes being thrown at me**

I love Williamsons playing (it got me into The Stooges) and I think he plays at his best when it sounds lik the guitar will bite your face off like in Search & Destroy or I Got A Right.

Saying that...

Ron's sound was more chaotic in an earthly way. And the solos near the end of the songs were never really solos in my opinion because Iggy yelped and screamed all the way through them.

Williamson's playing - like being threatened with a knife

Asheton's playing - like getting the shit beaten out of you

As for bassists...

Both Ron and Dave were brilliant. I'd personally say equal because Dave wrote some brilliant tunes. I love dirt. But Ron's basslines in Head On and She Creatures Of Hollywood Hills are equally fantastic.

Ron's got way too much talent, lucky devil.
Also tho, he probably was more proficient on bass and all, than Dave, but I really do get a great sense of feeling behind Dave's playing, always this full, rumbling kind of sound, which has a REALLY eerie effect, sometimes
Of course I don't know about the technical side of bass-playing either so I guess I can't say much more'n that!

just wish Dave could've played for longer, that's all

Nadja wrote:

just wish Dave could've played for longer, that's all

Me too. And I'm not slighting Dave's ability either. Stuff like Fun House and Dirt wouldn't have been the same without Dave.

Nadja wrote:

Ron's got way too much talent, lucky devil.
Also tho, he probably was more proficient on bass and all, than Dave, but I really do get a great sense of feeling behind Dave's playing, always this full, rumbling kind of sound, which has a REALLY eerie effect

I think you get that with Ron's guitar sound too. It's almost "earthy".

But in the intro of "I Wanna Be Your Dog" where on the last note Ron releases feedback and Dave just hits the one note over and over again, it sends a shiver down my spine. I love it!

G, F#, E wrote:

Nadja wrote:

Ron's got way too much talent, lucky devil.
Also tho, he probably was more proficient on bass and all, than Dave, but I really do get a great sense of feeling behind Dave's playing, always this full, rumbling kind of sound, which has a REALLY eerie effect

I think you get that with Ron's guitar sound too. It's almost "earthy".

somehow Ron's sound is really 'otherworldly', spooky, at times...Like on the first few minutes of 'Ann'. The spookiest, most haunting sound ever.

I've held up my Stooges listening some five years (listened too much as a kid) but I picked out the collection again just this week. I'd bought the biography, and I felt the urge.

First out was (of course) The Stooges (S/T).
And, as much as I have listened to these songs, I was totally flabbergasted when faced again with Ron's guitar-playing.
The notes flies, bends, turns in the air, vibrates, twists and howls howls howls. He goes boldly to places no other man has gone before. And is practically impossible to replicate.

When I got to Fun House, I realised that my old fave-stooges album was simply not as good as I remembered - compared to the debut, that is. Uh, and when it comes to Ron's soloing.
The attitude is there, and a lot badder than on the debut. But not the frustration, the poetic freaky jazz-melodies. Apart from that honking saxophonic half-assed jazz-punk of Steve McKay.
Still, Ron's playing is terrifying here - you have to remember, this fucker came 1970! The violence, mayhem and proto-metal slime that oozes out is impossible to deny. It is simply bigger than you.

And I'm still astonished! The Stooges is still so awesome, so intense. So feral.

Then I play Raw Power. The album I've listened to the most. And it's not up there with the first two.
You still get the violence, the danger, the druggy decadence. The noise n blasts n attacks. It truly is a great album - but not as iconic as the first two!
It plays nicer, it flows better, the songs are more... uhm - realized?

But the primitive brutes have been replaced by freaky drug fiends from outer space.
The savage innocense by cynic decadent nihilism.

And of top of all that - and underlining it - is poor James Williamson, wielding his sword like a spastic wizard, cutting up whatever comes in his way. Friend or foe. Fierce. No-holds-barred. Mercilessly. Cutting the Ashetons groovy fabric like a senseless kid with a razorblade.
Loveless. Soulless. And wonderful.

So, to conclude: IMHO - Ron's the better one. For sheer originality. But it's a close call. And it depends on what you want.
But James didn't start a Stooges of his own in 1967. Ron did. Ron, the originator.

Quote :

But James didn't start a Stooges of his own in 1967. Ron did. Ron, the originator.

No, but he did it a couple years earlier in the chosen few - what cudve been....

HJW

homesickjameswilliamson wrote:

Quote :

But James didn't start a Stooges of his own in 1967. Ron did. Ron, the originator.

No, but he did it a couple years earlier in the chosen few - what cudve been....

HJW

Wasn't that just some dodgy boogie-woogie band?

chosen few never got it really..

it's the chemistry between the f* Stooges
what made the music unforgettable-immortal
if you take one away...you get a totally different thing

ron and dave on bass => heaven on earth

one thing i realize though...

it was like 33 years before the stooges got back together... wouldn't you think ron may have wanted to get alot better... i mean... hes retty much as good as he was then... but thats it... you'd think after 33 years he'd be the master of guitar... especially to kinda slap in iggy's face after all of those years... and make iggy very stunned... ya know ?

but i love ron and i love the ig... THE STOOGES RULE !

You forget one thing - Ron found the Ulitimate Guitar Technic from the get go.

And if you check out New Order and Destroy All Monsters he's definately trying to play the guitar a bit more "skillful".

But since Ron is a smart man, he knew he should get back to his winning style of yore to get that Stooges sound once again. We thank him for that.

Lee de Parade wrote:

I've held up my Stooges listening some five years (listened too much as a kid) but I picked out the collection again just this week. I'd bought the biography, and I felt the urge.

First out was (of course) The Stooges (S/T).
And, as much as I have listened to these songs, I was totally flabbergasted when faced again with Ron's guitar-playing.
The notes flies, bends, turns in the air, vibrates, twists and howls howls howls. He goes boldly to places no other man has gone before. And is practically impossible to replicate.

When I got to Fun House, I realised that my old fave-stooges album was simply not as good as I remembered - compared to the debut, that is. Uh, and when it comes to Ron's soloing.
The attitude is there, and a lot badder than on the debut. But not the frustration, the poetic freaky jazz-melodies. Apart from that honking saxophonic half-assed jazz-punk of Steve McKay.
Still, Ron's playing is terrifying here - you have to remember, this fucker came 1970! The violence, mayhem and proto-metal slime that oozes out is impossible to deny. It is simply bigger than you.

And I'm still astonished! The Stooges is still so awesome, so intense. So feral.

Then I play Raw Power. The album I've listened to the most. And it's not up there with the first two.
You still get the violence, the danger, the druggy decadence. The noise n blasts n attacks. It truly is a great album - but not as iconic as the first two!
It plays nicer, it flows better, the songs are more... uhm - realized?

But the primitive brutes have been replaced by freaky drug fiends from outer space.
The savage innocense by cynic decadent nihilism.

And of top of all that - and underlining it - is poor James Williamson, wielding his sword like a spastic wizard, cutting up whatever comes in his way. Friend or foe. Fierce. No-holds-barred. Mercilessly. Cutting the Ashetons groovy fabric like a senseless kid with a razorblade.
Loveless. Soulless. And wonderful.

So, to conclude: IMHO - Ron's the better one. For sheer originality. But it's a close call. And it depends on what you want.
But James didn't start a Stooges of his own in 1967. Ron did. Ron, the originator.

Good summing-up and comparison of the three albums
I feel the same about them in many ways...
The first album. particularly Ron's work, is just the pinnacle of all musical achievement (not that I want to exaggerate or anything, I just have to express my feelings on this album all the time!!)
NOTHING else sounds like his guitar on the debut. NOTHING. Even Funhouse is inferior (the only thing Funhouse IS inferior to! The Stooges were only ever inferior to themselves!

JESUS_LOVES_THE_STOOGES wrote:

one thing i realize though...

it was like 33 years before the stooges got back together... wouldn't you think ron may have wanted to get alot better... i mean... hes retty much as good as he was then... but thats it... you'd think after 33 years he'd be the master of guitar... especially to kinda slap in iggy's face after all of those years... and make iggy very stunned... ya know ?

but i love ron and i love the ig... THE STOOGES RULE !

Because Ron was hurt by what Iggy did to him but then realised he shouldn't give a fuck what Iggy thinks of him. Don't get me wrong, I LOVE Iggy Pop but he seemed to be a real ass to the Ashetons and later James Williamson.

There seems to be a pattern: He left the Prime Movers to form The Stooges, then left the Ashetons and worked with Williamson, left Williamson for Bowie and has just been jumping from one musician to the next till he wound up with the Ashetons again.

I dont know if theres any malice in what he does he's just a collarborative person, and an opportunist, but not in a bad way, i think he knew there was something he had to put down on a record and he moved on to try and pursue that

plus the prime movers werent guna go newhere, they were just a covers band, and iggy wanted something wildly different, hence the stooges, the stooges were so drugged up and falling apart that he left that worked with williamson probly cause he saw something of himself in him, and had his same aggression, then williamson wanted to work with him for kill city, then iggy just saw bowie as a meal ticket for a while who he mite get an album out of and he did - and i'd have it no other way, if he stayed with the prime movers, we wouldnt have the stooges, if the stooges burnt down a couple years later (they were like morrison;, no way it was stayin alive) we wouldnt have kill city, or the idiot or lust for life, etc etc etc, he's an oppourtunist (hence his reunion with the ashetons) but its in a good way, its the oly way he can continue a career and for us fans, that can only be a good thing

Iggy's talent, intelligence and 'potency' or how d you call this was/is too big to stick with one person or with one band or to stay at one place for the rest of his life. you have to see that
if you only focus on how 'rudely' iggy chose for himself (like being an oportunist? dunno)...than..i guess..you don't understand what it means to have this talent and energy.

Iggy said something like he wanted and had to learn...ALWAYS and again and again...to stick with one band is maybe smarter (like Mick Jagger did)..but also restrictive in a lot of ways. if certain people felt offended by Iggy's attitude than i think those people attached themselves to much to him and expected more than he could give them specifically..or whatever.

What i read about iggy is that he tend to choose for himself. while people around him..knowing him well enough to understand where they were up to with iggy...and still get on working with him..and when things changed..started to complain etc. etc.

Bowie; guess he never felt offended by Iggy's attitude..cuz he's of the same breed..using iggy-iggy used him, that never was a real problem

all this talking about Iggy being egoistic and an opportunist ---> low + lost energy

going back to Ron, does anyone know whether he's got any family? I mean, kids...I never heard of any, just wondering cuz he SOOO needed to pass on his guitar-playing genes

Also, I guess this whole Ron-James debate is really inexhaustible, altho of course people have their preferences, but it's interesting, as it's just illustrative of how amazingly different the two principal guitarists with the world's best band actually are!

No, no little Rons, sadly. It would be a good thing. Just to grwo up and look after somebody younger than yourself is great for the soul (not that Iggy did so well).

James, on the other hand, has kids and I think is a good dad. But they somewhat mock hi guitar-playing I think, refer to his guitar case as "the coffin". Although I've a feeling they were impressed when Search and Destroy ended up on Guitar Hero 2.

Nadja wrote:

Also, I guess this whole Ron-James debate is really inexhaustible, altho of course people have their preferences, but it's interesting, as it's just illustrative of how amazingly different the two principal guitarists with the world's best band actually are!

People wouldn't even care about Ron & James if they had heard CC Deville, from Poison. He's the gosh-darned best guitarist of the last 30 years!

wow, thanks for the info paul, sounds like a nice guy, pity about ron tho, i'd love to hear james play - i hope he gets an invitation to play with them at the rock n rock hall of fame (theyre a shoo-in with them being present or presented the past two years) that would be cool, and even just to see how they would be and what would come out of it, im sure stooges fans didnt think that we'd have an album and 4 years of gigs from a collaboration on an album

mg196 wrote:

Nadja wrote:

Also, I guess this whole Ron-James debate is really inexhaustible, altho of course people have their preferences, but it's interesting, as it's just illustrative of how amazingly different the two principal guitarists with the world's best band actually are!

People wouldn't even care about Ron & James if they had heard CC Deville, from Poison. He's the gosh-darned best guitarist of the last 30 years!