Ron Asheton and James Williamson

Nadja wrote:

and, Loose, rest assured that I fully appreciate Scott Asheton's contribution in all of this!

Glad to hear that. With all the talk of Ron vs. James, sometimes the other necessary elements get forgotten. Even with all the changes, Mr. Rock Action always kept that beat beatin'!

Very true, their one of those bands, like the stones, like (i hate to mention them in the same sentence as the stooges or stones) zeppelin where each member of the band is equally important as the preceding one ... maybe more important, lol, thats homer, but, theyre all important u'no, u take one away (dave) and u get a whole different album

homesickjameswilliamson wrote:

theyre all important u'no, u take one away (dave) and u get a whole different album

all the more so as they also shifted other personnel around after Dave left

and as for 'Rock Action' - yes, I'm really not so obsessed with guitarists (or bassists) that I can't recognize a great drummer when I hear one. What a band - a shining example of all the best elements coming together at the same time!

Loose1969 wrote:

If there is any one JW version Stooges song that stands out to me though, it's gotta be "Sick Of You". Goddamn, that ice-pick guitar on that just floors me. That's by far my favorite Williamson-era song. Fuuuuuuccckkkkkk......

'Sick of You' always puts me in mind of the Stones' 'Playing with Fire'

Nadja wrote:

Before anyone gets the wrong idea I don't mean to set this up as a sort of contest, but it's interesting to compare these two guitarists - they're so different! I guess Williamson is generally regarded as being more gifted technicially but Asheton gets a superior sound, which, for me, is the greater talent. Williamson's got plenty fire and energy too of course and I especially like his more blues-y stuff, like on 'I Need Somebody' and, even more, 'Pinpoint Eyes', which is just terrific. But a lot of the time - certainly on Raw Power - he sounds like a fairly conventional hard-rock guitarist, all thrash and trebly, spiky solos, whereas Asheton's playing is so much more fluid and so rhythmic. Overall, Asheton just has more of an impact - such an incredibly full sound. That's my opinion, and maybe I hold Asheton's guitar-playing in too much reverence, but also I chanced to hear Asheton's playing long before I ever heard Williamson's, so Asheton set the standard for me. Williamson is still a great player of course (or was!!!) but I prefer Asheton because he just sounds so unique.
any thoughts?

I'm a musician and think Williamson kills Ashton. And if you think he's a conventional hard rock guitarist, he was the first player to play that sort of style which is why he is revered and copied in punk circles, it's just that his style is very prominent today and most people don't realize where it came from. I'm primarily a bass player although I do play guitar and while Ashton has a great style he is a simple player, Williamson was very advanced and brought them to a new level. On the other hand I thought Ashton was a very good bass player, got a great sound and played nice lines, he sounds like a bass player playing guitar to me which is what I sound like when I play guitar. Williamson played on the edge all the time, that takes balls and talent.
I guess you have to be a geezer like me to appreciate what Williamson really did for these guys. If they hadn't have done the Raw Power album and tour I don't think they would be remembered as well as they are today. I don't know why Williamson is not currently playing with them, but it's their loss, instead of sounding like a bad parody they could probably have become inventive again. I think Iggy needs someone like Williamson to give him a kick in the ass.

Williamson dosent play anymore, and stated he only really would if they were getting into the RNR HALL OF FAME. i hope they do because thatd' be kickass to see

Bob, check what i wrote about how i think ron didnt have that speed and agility of james, and james could really spruce a lead, where ron uses pedals and distrotion to make it sound real good(although i love ron) but jaems is just total different.

Bob, i may be the only other one here that knows what you mean, but im exactly with you here. i also play bass and guitar(and also drums, and i sing) ron was a really really crazy good bass player. on the album "Raw Power" the bass was recorded horrid on most tracks though( its so boomy) the recording engineer must have been on crack(lol)

but as i also stated james used his pinky always. -- watch Ron, he never uses it (even today) on a lead.

I guess it's ron's own fault for loosing his job to williamson though. Think about it... he wanted a 2nd guitar player to replace Cheatham..

ONE PROBLEM ! -- Never get someone better than you to play rhythm guitar LOL. and he did. and james took over because of it.


Bob - I hope to hear a reply back. I'd like to chat more about this with you !


CHEERS !

bobyoung wrote:

I don't know why Williamson is not currently playing with them, but it's their loss, instead of sounding like a bad parody they could probably have become inventive again. I think Iggy needs someone like Williamson to give him a kick in the ass

I'm sorry, but sincerely speaking I gotta disagree with that. My opinion

have to say, you don't convince me at all bob young!!

I prefer Ron, but this doesn't mean that I don't like James guitar sound...

but I think that the asheton brothers are really the basis of stooges music

albeyourmirror wrote:

I think that the asheton brothers are really the basis od stooges music

Correcto! Asheton brothers are crucial. Period.

yeah, music owes HELLUVA lot to the Asheton brothers.

but all that about Ron wanting a second guitar player, don't know why he suddenly seemed to start wanting one! Surely not for a fuller sound, you can't GET a more fuller sound than when Ron's around! Of course he must've had his reasons.... !
I mean, dragging a roadie into it - just how much did Cheatham know about playing guitar?

Nadja wrote:

yeah, music owes HELLUVA lot to the Asheton brothers.

AMEN to that! No Ashetons, no Stooges.

Nadja wrote:

but all that about Ron wanting a second guitar player, don't know why he suddenly seemed to start wanting one! Surely not for a fuller sound, you can't GET a more fuller sound than when Ron's around! Of course he must've had his reasons.... !
I mean, dragging a roadie into it - just how much did Cheatham know about playing guitar?

I think it was a cool idea. And in my opinion would have been fun much more later if they hadn't gone into that heroin stuff.

so it was just the heroin that really spoiled everything? yeah, it's likely enough to have been the main factor I guess!!

Nadja wrote:

so it was just the heroin that really spoiled everything? yeah, it's likely enough to have been the main factor I guess!!

I guess so. Mr. T [Paul T ] knows for sure

and this whole ron-james thing, I've already repeated myself on this ad nauseam, but the reason I hold Ron's playing in reverence above all else is simply because of the sound he gets, or tone, or whatever it's called technically. I don't know how he gets it, & I'm not sophisticated enough to know just how much depends on technique and equipment and amps and what-not. I just don't know how he does it, and I would like to know. Especially the sound on the first two albums. He himself can't measure up to that any more, but he still leaves every other guitarist for dead. Long may it continue I say!!

I think this debate is moot (i think thats the phrase), because its the difference of views from ppl who know how to play guitar and ppl who dont, before i learnt guitar hendrix esp blew me away - as he does anyone (guitarist or not) and i had the same thing with hendrix (and dylan - as a wannabe songwriter) as you do for ron; they just completely blow you away, but then i learnt guitar and suddenly things like "voodoo chile (slight return)" become easy to play with the right setup u'no, and as far as im concerned and this debate is concerned Ron is a fantastic guitar, and is the same kind of musician as i am, and as i like in music (the sound of things more than the technique) - he's also my favourite stooges guitarist - but James was a way better guitarist, techniquely, brilliant, still brilliant after all these years of other guitarists who seem to think that just because you can play at twice hendrix speed makes you better than him, lol, but james was a far better guitarist, and as a guitarist one i would love to be, i'd love to be that good technically and have that razor sharp sound, but i think thats it, just a different point of view (literally)

I've never been that impressed by Hendrix. I don't say that because I'm trying to be iconoclastic or anything, it's the truth! Or to be more accurate I suppose, it's just that he doesn't do anything that special for me. Of course he and Williamson and a million other guitarists are amazingly talented (or were), and of course anyone with half a brain appreciates that (incl. me), but, what I'm trying to get at is that they don't sound literally unique the way Ron does. Not to me. And it's been like this for all the time I've been listening to The Stooges, it just doesn't change. No other guitar has that effect for me, and after six years of countless re-listenings and frenzied research and heated discussion I stilll don't know why. Maybe I've just hypnotized myself into believing it, now, but actually I think Ron deserves more credit than that ...
another thing - if I'd chanced to hear Williiamson's guitar FIRST, before Ron Asheton's, I wonder what my opinion would be?? of course I don't know for sure, but I think it'd still be the same, more or less.

but anyway, yeah, in the end it's all about opinions! it's just that I've got this earnest streak in me that makes me want to explain exactly why I feel the way I do about things (ESPECIALLY Ron Asheton's guitar!) and yeah, I know I tend to put other people to sleep by doing that!

Cheers!

Hendrix wasn't the best. He was the first to play in that style though. And he's definitely ONE of the best.

And as far as the current debate goes: Vibe beats technical prowess every time for me. Which is why I prefer Ron.

Loose1969 wrote:

And as far as the current debate goes: Vibe beats technical prowess every time for me. Which is why I prefer Ron.

Ditto

Both Ron and James were influenced by Jimi. You can hear that in some Ron's leads and about James in e.g. 'Delta Blues Shuffle'. I agree very much with Loose, that Hendrix was the first to play in that style. In my ears, Jimi's playing is totally out of space

True, both Ron and Jimi were innovators but in the spirit of minimalism Ron plays without all the wankery and ego of many guitarists and produces a far greater sound for it. He recites an example of how into the music he used to get in the booklet of My Girl Hates My Heroin - "There were many times that I would just beat on a guitar, I've broken guitars with my fist, bloodied. I can remember just feeling at the end of one night, for feedback that I just got into hitting this guitar. Just beating on it, and I beat on it until the neck broke. I felt no pain, and I remember coming into the dressing room havin a cigarette and someone goes "Oh my god! Your right hand is like 3 times bigger than your left hand! And covered in blood!" So when they brought the guitar in it was covered in blood. I didn't feel it, But it was just the Moment."

I've pretty much gone off all Hendrix, which I used to be into in my teens. Though there is one superb CD of him at the Scene Club from 1968 where he's obviously totally wasted and technically playing really sloppy but with real vibe, then an absolutely smashed Jim Morrison invades the stage and takes over the mike crooning obscenities Iggy style for several songs before passing out! Highly recommended.

Jimi's vibe is absolutely nr.1 !!!!
Ron has a lot of soul, like Jimi in his guitar
and James is a sharp nasty hell of a good guitar player.
It really depends on my mood which one I would choose when..

hmmm.good recommendation mc!

mc wrote:

I've pretty much gone off all Hendrix, which I used to be into in my teens. Though there is one superb CD of him at the Scene Club from 1968 where he's obviously totally wasted and technically playing really sloppy but with real vibe, then an absolutely smashed Jim Morrison invades the stage and takes over the mike crooning obscenities Iggy style for several songs before passing out! Highly recommended.

I've got that cd Morrison is incredibly shit-faced HA HA